blonde poker forum

dont have history, scoop, 2 tables left.

we open from an 11m stack with 22 to 120k at 30k/60k, tight guy 3bets from co to 285k form a 5m stack, we peel. its his first 3bet of the comp so far and has taken pot control lines with tptk and has a low aggression factor. our image is batshit.

flop is  2s 8s 9h, we bet 2777777 (2.77m) thoughts?

hand for reference.

hero raises pre, cbets, checks turn and mistakenly bets 168k into 1.1m pot where he meant to bet 1.6m about 20 hands previously. every hand played was bet with weird numbers.

Ask Stato how easy it is to get levelled by this shit. Pretty cool, and dirrrrrrrrrrty which is nice

you stack all his overpairs this way gtd.

Thing is though we all the weaker hands in his range off the hook here. Unless you are sure his 3b range is super strong (not 77 or AJs for eg) and never lite. Also for this to be > checking you'd need to be sure his Cbet frequency without a hand, and his tendency to pot control (say with QQ here) is frequent as well. Not sure these are actually good assumptions but I do like the play, it's cool, and it puts him in quite a coffin at this stage. Also if he is aware of his image and has a good idea of his perceived 3bet range being very tight and value-heavy then this make make this bet look very strong.

Cool though, all the same.

Hate sizing

I quite like a donk into this villian, but you are giving him such a huge chance to get away when he has missed by betting more than 50% of his stack. If you are going to do that you might as well open jam to trade the batshit image and let him level himself into calling off the AK part of his range

If he has the AA KK type hands - you will get him anyway. This hand is way too strong to let him get away with hands he might otherwise fold

I skyped Pads to say he might want to recheck his OP  ;whistle;

disagreeeeeeeeee

the guy likes pot controlling and its not inconcievable that he checks back flop with AA cuz if he checks back its so much harder for him to lose his stack which is huge for him and he can now bluffcatch or get value on turn/river. in general it just makes playing the hand more comfortable for him if he checks flop, not to mention if our image is crazy he knows hes gonna be put in rly tough spots if he gets checkraised on flop and the worst that happens if he checks back is he has to call 2 streets which is much more appealing to him.

if he cbets and pleno calls and he has AA no spade and a brick spade rolls off on the turn, you think we're 'getting him anyway'? if any 9TJ7 or any spade rolls off on the turn we dont stack him imo. if pleno checkcalls flop and top pair pairs the board he prob just checks back even if it is better to bet just cuz he knows it sucks balls if pleno checkraises. and if any of the others roll off straight/flush/2pair possibilities just got way higher. and even if these spots are all better to bet/fold aces the last thing anyone wants to do is betfold aces vs someone checkjamming a turned draw but they dont wanna bet call aces drawing dead either.

in conclusion i think its REALLLLLY FRIKKIN HARD to stack aces in this spot vs a guy who hasnt shown much aggression and enjoys potcontrolling

tbh i think his most likely line with aces here is gonna be check back flop call turn call river...in which we dont stack him. he has to cbet for us to have any chance to stack him and i rly dont know if he does cbet that often

No matter how much he enjoys a check back, I'd be super surprised to see him check back dem aces here. Just think about the feeling you get when you get AA/KK or a set. Heart racing, maniac opens pre, you get the 3bet in and see a 289ss flop? Chances you check back?

SPR is 10, so we need to get a funky bet in at some point, whether this be a c/r or an overbet. But even then not sure how even the biggest nit folds when he bets and gets raised with our image. Despite this, we need to be pretty dam sure his 3bet range is extremely tight for something like this to work.

Close between this, check/shove (or just mahoosive raise) and playing the hand in a standard fashion. We may see a slightly more +ev route from the standard line, but does the chance of stacking him with one of the first two methods make it better in terms of the comp overall? I realise this makes those more +ev but hopefully this makes enough sense

I dont think we can put him in any tough spots OTF, if we chk raise he either calls or goes all in surely? Seems pretty easy for him

Am I misreading this HH or did you just donk the flop for ~5 times the size of the pot?

having flopped a set with a maniacal image

That is the suggested line yes

That's what I thought... Wasn't sure whether I was hallucinating or not  :)

Anyway, it's an interesting line and I can see the point of it - to make it as likely as possible that you stack an overpair. However, I am not 100% sure that this is the most effective way to go about achieving this objective.

If you choose to donk then you can quite happily bet a more 'normal' amount and still get stacks in by the river simply through bet, bet, jamming. And tbh donking for half the effective stack makes little sense at all... since it is pretty much the same as going all-in, and even the most clueless opponent will realise this. The only thing it does is take away any chance of him ever bluff raising your donk with air (granted this is not especially important given that you are pretty sure he has an ovepair, but it is still a factor).

Basically, I like the fact that you have considered donking this flop vs this guy, rather than just automatically checking. But I think the 5x pot bet is just you wanting to be cool ;)

BUT PLENO IS COOL STOOOOOO-AT! He has a cool job, a hot girlfriend and a dog! If had those 3 things I'd never even consider betting 5x pot, I'd actually consider chk.folding here, cos I can.

I have 2 dogs.


So weird u think it's me wanting to look cool. I think if we donk flop to a normal size it's a lot more difficult to stack overpaid than both overbettong and c/r simply from a pot to stack ratio thing and as there are so many ugly turn cards, 7 8 9 10 j q that can really escape him nevermind flush run outs etc.

Definitely not tryi I look cool and think comment is a little out of touch.

Results echecked back jj and king came on the river. Ah yeh if he has 10s to qq he can fold on a and k rivers whilst he never does web we overbet

Sorry Patrick... comment was meant purely as a gentle joke, no malice at all. If I've offended in any way at all I am really sorry. Especially as I think your posts on PHA are extremely good and I love the effort you are clearly putting into developing your poker thought processes.

I particularly love it that you are trying out lots of creative outside-the-box stuff, rather than just taking the safe standard lines. It is inevitable that when you do this you will produce both moments of genius and moments of spew (not saying this particular hand is spew). This is part of the learning curve, and of course eventually there are far more genius moments than spew moments.

The interesting thing is that through taking these creative lines, and realising that a fair few of them don't work, you end up understanding the standard lines on a much deeper level. And at this point when you choose to take a standard line you are not taking it because it is 'standard', you are taking it because you truly understand why it is a good line. In general the standard lines are standard for a reason - they work well. But this is not always the case, and there are plenty of opportunites to gain an edge by exploring beyond these well-trodden paths.

So if you want to donk out five times the size of the pot... do it! It might well be the best possible way to play the hand. And if not, who cares?

Plus it makes you super cool ;)

Seriously, having the imagination and creativity to even consider donking five times the pot IS pretty fxxxing cool  ;tightend;

Serious question.

Are you trying to make this look like a mis-type, like you accidentally added one too many Sevens on the end?  If so, that might be borderline genius.  And of course borderline genius is also borderline crazy.  Either way if this is the thinking I love it.

Two Dogs AND a John Black?

man you busy.

:D

Hey stu

Sorry for being touchy, was seriously tilted because there was no game of thrones episodes for me to watch and I wanted moarrrrrrrrrrr. Thanks for te nice words though.

@tommyd yes was a fake misclick

J
Bottom of his range tho. If he gr checking back jacks and queens does the line make more cos we stack kings and aces. Or would he cbet ace king /go mental when he hits?

Well providing you've been donking a lot of flops with this villian on the table and you've been betting a lot of 'silly number' amounts for him to notice then I love it.  His 3bet range is so narrow you're probably getting snap jammed on here.  If I was the villian I'd fall for it, I'd be rubbing my hands with an over pair here thinking 'I've caught you.'

Le me get this straight, you call weakly with 22 preflop, hit an amazing flop and bet 4 x pot? And you made it down to the last 2 tables of a scoop? What is wrong with you?

Really really dislike this bet - it smacks of fps to me.  For the simple reason when he doesnt have an overpair (which he wont a lot of the time) he folds.  You prob increase the probabilty you stack him when he has an overpair but thats it.   When he does have an overpair here you're still going to win a sizable pot/possibly stack him by playing the hand more standardly.   
Your aim shouldnt be to stack your opponent as frequently as possible it should be to try and maximise your winnings.  By donking so big you miss all the value v his marginal hands/bluffs.

Donking a standard amount is a viable line if you really think he'll check back overpairs in this spot (which tbh i'm surprised he did).  Id just check raise on the assumption that he bets his overpairs and shouldnt be folding them to a raise.  Also you actually want to give him the oppurtunity to check back with a lot of his range AQ/AK. 
Finally just because this is the first time he's 3 bet doesnt mean he cant have an 89s type hand - which again you want to let c bet/check back.

There's times and places for experimentation - final two tables of a scoop when youve flopped a set in a 3 bet pot isn't one of them.

i'd say his 3bet range is ak+ and 10s+ btw giving him opr/abi/playing style. vs a normal 3bet range i agree with the above.

i check flop btw, was jsut trying to put the line out. he checked back jacks.

I really dislike this play on this board texture. There are just too many non pair hands that we can get value from if we use more conventional sizing all of which snap fold when we do this.

Also, these fake missclicks work much better on dry board textures where we have the pre flop initiative because then we have way more air in our betting range so we get called WAY more often. When we donk here our perceived range isn't that weak anyway (sets, big draws and slow played overpairs), so he's not gonna call off as wide or as often as we want him to.

Yeh but like I said in hand before guy was a not trying to ladder and doesn't have many non pair hands, in normal hand/tournament/spot I'd never lead like this

Played in a shitty live poker tournament last night. Most of the bet sizing was like this.

MANTIS after a rough start you've literally become one of my favorite people on here now ;first;

Yes you're (mantis) hardly recognisable from the guy who posted in that Mantis/Greekstein/Keys thread.

Looking back on that thread do you think you've changed as a person since then Mantis?

Ha, not in that respect Alex. I would take on a gang of geeky bullies with equal enthusiasm today.

Btw ty Dave.

Loving your new diary, hope you keep it up.

If you could only eat one animal for the rest of your life which would you pick?

I would go with the pig, so many options... Even though chicken is my fave meat.

prob beaver

Thinking inside the box.