blonde poker forum

Hey,

So what does Blonde think good BRM is? How many buy ins do we generally keep for cash games? I potentially play way over-rolled so just want to get some opinions from others.

Also if you play full time (i dont) how many years savings should you have put away for a rainy day? 6 months, 1 year, 5 years, 10 years?

Brags

not even thinly veiled

bout 51k for a rainy day

how? its really not?

i could think that 15bis is overrolled or could think 50-100 bis is overrolled.

guess its hard to speak about poker anymore on blonde :(

for example

http://www.thepokerbank.com/strategy/basic/bankroll-management/

20 :O I think I would have a heart attack with this brm, everything I see says 20-40 but I'm sure others must have some different opinions?

Pleno, you don't realise that you're the only person playing poker who is playing with their own money.

No, that is correct. YOU MUST FOLLOW THOSE INSTRUCTIONS, THEY ARE WRITTEN ON THE INTERNET. DO NOT THINK FOR YOURSELF.

Being overolled isn't an issue if your pro player. Just play the games you make money at- obviously enough to make a living, not 10nl. If you had 200k, no reason not to play 200nl if your making an hourly you are happy with.

haha thats why i ask.

rupert made a very very good video on mtts which is totally perfect, made me decide not to play high stakes mtts again for a long time and just question about cash brm.

such a boss at posting.

Dont play off my own back online but live I've built up from a few spins (granted a few failed attempts) now sat on about 25bi-ish for 50/1. Still well underrolled for any deep games or even taking stabs at 1/2 but it keeps me afloat for any hiccup nights I may have.

found this

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/56/medium-stakes-pl-nl/how-many-months-expenses-do-you-set-aside-1219453/

Anyway, brag over...What you going to do with all your new found mad dimes? I am old and boring but would deffo reccomend putting some away for a rainy day, paying off debts or a house deposit. You might have already done that from other wins but makes sense if you already rolled at a level you already beat and make a living from

lol, its really not about this :(

You will all see tomorrow when Ruperts video is revealed, its very interesting and just made me think so researched and was v v surprised with the replies.

Going to sound stupid but I don't believe in savings, and I don't really believe in BRM (obviously that's not exactly true as I will explain)

I believe in financial utility, money in the bank is money being wasted, all your money should be working for you all the time, bankroll is just a tool and leaving some of it un-used is inefficient. I work with two things in mind 1) future utility, using money to help secure future (i.e I don't have to do much work at all in ten years time) and 2) short term utility, ensuring I have enough money to make a living/pay bills in the short term. it's my goal that whatever risks I take for 1) doesn't damage 2) this isn't always the case but providing you can stay self supported I'm happy to take big(ish) risks for what I think are acceptable future rewards.

This being said I'm quite happy not having much liquid money it doesn't stress/worry me etc if im temp liquid busto, not true for everyone tho.

Not said it yet but gratz on the score and all the money you have now :)

Basically you need like 1k buyins for online mtts as 600bi downswings will happen with an ABI of $100. Shaun Deeb has had a 1500bi downswing. I mean, what the fuck. Poker isn't about printing money any more. Online swings are beyond sick, especially in mtts. Kjemmy mentioned he had a 200k downswing @ 10/20-25/50 HU, and thats probably only close to running as nut low as possible.

I only play recreationally but if I was doing it for a living i'd do it something like this:

3 accounts: bankroll, living, saving

Every month transfer from bankroll to living and saving. Living is for rent, food, nights out, etc. Saving is for the future, holidays, backup, etc.

So something like £1,000 per month into living, and £200 into saving.

Assuming a 40 hour week, and 5 weeks off needs an hourly rate of £7.60ish.

If the bankroll is rising faster than that then either move up stakes/put more into savings account. I'd want about 50 buyins myself to be comfortable at any given stake.

Seems about right for something i've just thought of now :)

Think the numbers i've chosen there don't give the best example as I imagine most would want a higher wage than that. But the basic idea is to make living costs/savings as a constant (static and predictable) drain to the bankroll - this makes it harder to move up stakes but keeps you safely winning at a game you are beating, whilst still allowing the opportunity to move up if you are beating it faster than you take a wage.

I think the general rule I've tried to use is around 50bi. By bi, I mean 100 big blinds. Say, if I'm playing a £1-£2 game, I'll probably buy in for £400-£500, so this will be 2bis-2.5bis. I only really play live, so I expect the games to be much softer than online. Also, live players generally don't keep in mind pot sizes, so their bets will usually be smaller on turns/rivers, and you rarely see any over bets.

Another thing I generally disagree with is when people say, I need x number of buyins to take a shot. Well, unless you're planning to play this bigger game till you have £0, then why do you need x number of buyins? If you do keep playing this game till you have nothing, then you're not really taking a shot then are you? I'd say as long as the shot isn't detrimental to your usual game, then it's fine to take a shot with much less than people generally think.

Money working for you at all times is key. Only put some away if yu plan to use it very soon (ie house deposit) otherwise get it workng for you. Paying off any loans or debts where you are paying interest should be priority.

more cliffs/example on money working?

link to ruperts vid?

No harm in using 200 buyins for MTTs for your max-buyin (your abi will be much lower) as long as you are willing to keep updating your records and move up/down stakes as your bankroll fluctuates

There are loads. i am specifically talking about buying property as both a life decision in terms of where to settle down but also buying property to rent out and gain an income and to provide a pension for the future rather than relying on more traditional savings and pension options. Having a buy to let and getting someone to pay off your mortgage for you for example whilst you gain off the rising price long term and the income from the rent.

Its probably a subject better tackled by someone like Eso or worth talking to a proper independent financial advisor.  You may not have the time or inclination to go down this route though and actually you may also feel the utility of your money would make more by moving up stakes and crushing higher games.  Yu could tryother investments such as stocks and shares, just dont go to Zimbler for advice. A word of warning though which may be relevant to gamblers and pokerplayers.. If you have money tied up in more safe investments and you cant get hold of it you could find yourself short rolled for games you wanna play.  However, on the plus side by having it tied up you cant spew the lot off.

This is a question that haunts me. I have no BRM for cash for sure, I just keep using a bank card or something, when needed. Then analyse after.

For tournaments I always stick to buy-in @ 3-5% of roll.

BRM is something I have got to look at personally.

Just keep flicking it in till the bank phones you up.

The old CALL OF SHAME EH, I know this one...

"Just want to ask you about some debit card transactions Mr nicholson...

9.21pm £51.60 at Jake's bar, Leeds

Yup, that;s me

11.04pm £85.46 at Oporto, Leeds

Yup, Me

2.21am £1,000 Gala Casino, Leeds

Oh god, yes me.

2.43am £56.80 Red Carpet Leisure

...yeah...me

3.00am £118.20 Red Carpet Leisure

YES, STILL ME!

3.35am £188.45 Red Carpet Leisure

OK OK THEY'RE ALL ME OK just unblock my fucking card."

Just had my card declined... :(

Put some zeros on the end if Red Carpet was called Rhino

Artistic licence and altered the bag from Red Carpet to Gala obv.... :D

I did that went from 5k to 50k in just over a year because the banks kept flicking it at me and I didn't have a decline button....

Had this once. Was something like "10pm, £200 pokerstars, 10:30pm, £200 pokerstars, 11pm £200 pokerstars". Think I did 3k that night rofl

I had the same thing today with 6 pairs of kurt geigers

Thinly veiled 'I've got 12 feet' brag post.

i ordered 1 :(

Ruperts vid on pokerstrat?

http://www.pokerstrategy.com/video/26064/5

made it a weelyl freebie so all blondes can see :)

Rupert speaks and comes across really well, but I don't like the content much.

It starts off with this baffling graphic that is really poorly explained (unless you already know what "Sharpe allocation" is  or "Mean variance frontier" etc etc). I did Economics A level and a year of it at Uni, but I didn't really grasp what was going on in that graph. So I really doubt people who haven't done Economics will understand it, you just seemed to take it as given that people would understand those terms and just immediately get what was going on.

Prepared to be embarrassed if I'm just a simpleton and everybody else understood it no problem!

That would be fine if the rest of video was of a similar level - it'd just be a niche high level video - fine. But it's not, the rest is really simple basic advice and explaining concepts such as "Tournaments with bigger fields are higher variance because..." and "softer tournaments are lower variance because".

That first graph was definitely the most interesting and useful concept of the presentation, but I feel he rushed it and didn't explain what everything meant for those of us who dropped out of our Economics degree :P or even those grinders who did no Economics at all!

Pleeeeeno....congrats on the bink and all that, nice work if you can get it.

I am old and had a completely different approach when I didn't work for a year and a half, I remember Dubai taking the piss out of me when I said I would have to drop to $60 ABI as I only had $x in the bank - but I have a mortgage and shit.

Basically, my basic outgoings are £2k (car, mortgage, bills, some food) a month and I didn't really want to change my lifestyle too much.  I worked it with basically five pots of money, sometimes in my head rather than completley seperate, altho I do use a few current / savings accounts and tried to be organised:-

Savings (with a "I need to get some work trigger" of £xk - x is personal based on risk)
Bankroll reserve - in online savings a/c
Living Expenses - in current account
In Play Poker Bankroll - online
in Play Betting bankroll - online

Basically, I locked away the savings / in shares, funds and a proportion liquid - Premium Bonds.  I never had more than my £xk work trigger not liquid e.g. shares / funds

My bankroll reserve tried to leave me with 500xMTT ABI Total (including 100BI in play) (I know not enough mathmatically)

I always kept my Living expense account at 3 months - e.g. £6k, everymonth I would either top up from my rolls or take from my liquid savings in reserve.

I always kept my betting bankroll at £2k, at month end I would either top up from savings or send money into the reserve.

I kept my poker bankroll online at about 100 buy ins, especially after Black Friday - however i always tried to keep my ABI at a level where I had 500x BIs in my inplay and resrve roll.  This is where I lacked some discipline when I started to downsing, I didn't drop down levels, which meant ultimately I reached my "£xk I need to get some work level" in May this year.  I think the difference for me here is being older and having had a career I was pretty confident I could get work, so when I didnt drop down the levels it was sort of conscious - although not good BRM if I didn't want to / couldnt get work.  Also I had a 5% live limit, so if my assets over my £xk level were say £40k, I could only play a £2k live - hence I sold action for WPT for example (thin).

Basically then, when I had good months I'd top up my savings and bad months I'd refresh the bankroll.  Ultimately, when I reached my "trigger point" of Xk in May this year after a combination of a bad downswing and realising I am not as good as many others, I got some work.  Actaully, my attitude now very very different, I play less - so happy taking shots live and playing odd Sunday as I am earning. 

I think the morale is its what Keys said, its personal, and what your comfortable with - not what you read on the net.  Obviosuly there are mathmatical views on buy ins, field sizes, variance which is all useful - however part of the overall financial structure is about your attitude to risk. e.g. Shallow v me v lilDave all different, no right or wrong answer.

I was not always completely disciplined at this, for clarity - some months I'd spew, bet to much on sport, not drop ABI - I guess the one thing I was always disciplined on was my "xk trigger point" of getting some work.  I think part of the reason for the trigger point being that important to me was a combination of my age and the fact I knew I wasn't that good - it was more about giving poker a go, I knew my edge was much lower than loads of the guys I know, definately better live.  So I needed that trigger point to say "You've had a crack, back to reality - don't go skint"

It is about basic money management though.

Not sure if any of that is any help at all......

wow good post Shaun!

Thanks..I only post seriously when I think I can add something....thats why I never join you boys in PHA, self awareness and all that rofl

Fantastic post, thanks for sharing and v well done for having the discipline and humility to stick to your trigger point, millions don't.

I think as LilDave constantly refers to with this aspect of poker is it's very much hero dependant.

Other than just after the Monte Carlo bink (thin etc etc), I don't think I've ever had three months worth of monthly outgoings covered at any one point in my life roll, but that never bothers me whereas some other people would sweat that pretty hard. 500+ bi's for lol donkaments and 50-60 bi's at cash seems ok, more for both if you don't want to have to worry about going broke at any some point soon.

Great post from Shaun and good post from Monda too.  I think, as Shaun said, it is also somewhat age dependent.  I recently had a bit of a downswing combined with some issues collecting and whilst I still theoretically had more than enough to continue and more than I had had in certain cases previously my circumstances and attitude to risk have changed so i decided to take on some work to help build my roll back up but I have responsibilities now so I would not be as comfortable as I was previously being underolled either for the bets i needed to make or in general life terms.  That is a decision only you can make because only you know your risk levels and responsibilities.

yeah one thing I will say is that an attitude like mine (quite risk heavy and aggressive) would prolly be pretty irresponsible if i had a family to support/mortgage, or any dependant outgoing. I've had loads of chat's like this with Stu (a.k.a Honeybadger) and I always say that i believe 100% if I'd had the same level of responsibility he has had on his shoulders during his poker career there is no way I'd have survived. tbh anyone with the discipline and work ethic to support a family in gambling deserves a huge amount of respect, regardless of their ability.

+1 to Keys post wp to Shaun for actually triggering at his trigger, one thing me and Jamie always ask each other, and I think this is a good question to ask all younger pro's, if you stopped beating poker, how long would it take you from that point to ACTUALLY quit playing the game (for a living) I feel personally like it might be a long time, I'd like to think i'd have enough about me to say "I'm no longer good enough, I'm out" but in reality I'm not convinced I would actually do this (not straight away anyways)

Lots of good posts itt.

Question. Shaun do you have a trigger for getting back into poker full time?

Ask this because I played for a living for 6 months having a mortgage and very similar outgoings to yourself. At the time I had quite a relaxed attitude to risk, played with 2 months bills and small amount of savings but even though I did well I quickly lost my bottle and the pressure of not having enough money behind me affected my mental state and as a result also my game.

Now I work in the financial sector my attitude to risk has somewhat changed. I have worked out I would not play poker full time again unless I had 83k behind me. May be seen as a bit of overkill but works out as;

24k cover outgoings year 1
30k poker bankroll
24k bills to cover a year job searching if poker roll is bust.
5k holidays year 1

Here's hoping..

It's a really interesting area, as it's also about your playing preference linked to desire - and also the "opportunity cost" of your earnings capability.

In terms of the first area, I had no desire to 24 table SNGs or grind $10 ABI MTTs - I wouldn't enjoy that, it's not what poker is about to me; probably brain a a bit slow. I also found it difficult to motivate myself to drop down levels, some of that is ego, some excitement levels - but some is linked to my second point, opportunity cost of poker.

I had a reasonably successful career, quickly - and lnew my value in job market. Whilst at times I hated corporate life, and happiness was part of my decision to play and quit work, you do have to consider them side by side. If my choice was flipping burgers or grinding $6 sngs, think I'd do the later.  I think it's a really interesting discussion for the likes of Dave, Alex - well most of the good players who are young. They're all very bright, however unless they succeed in entrepreneurial areas, it'll be tough to get a career that meets their needs (money, lifestyle) in late twenties. I had dinner with a bunch of senior traders last night and MD of an offshore sports book and was advocating targeting poker players as trainees; he was saying problem is most won't look at starting salaries, or I'd they do yearn to go back to poker.  So he'd rather take 18/19 year old tjunior traders who Want the job on 19k and grow them. He thought the city was a better option for really bright ones.

Think it just reconfirms Daves point; so many factors at play and no right or wrong answer. I have a ton of respect for the younger lads I know that play and really annoyed when oldies say "what will you do in 10 years" blah blah blah - least they are making a positive choice.

One thing I would say, whatever you do the +Ev happiness element is key.

Milli - probably not a trigger to get back full time. I have an amount of money target that allows me to have choices; the choices are more likely to be a three month stint travelling, some shots like WSOP Australia, or more likely be selective about the work I take on I.e. stuff I enjoy, or start a business (working on a couple of ideas)

But again, it's back to the happiness point and personal choice...I'm a big kid that doesn't want to feel trapped again after feeling that way 25-39 with career. I'm also lucky in the fact I haven't got myself into the "one" relationship wise!

Ps - hate talking money as always feel a bit obscene, but my numbers within 20% of yours lol

Raise a lot of good points there and massively agree with the +ev of happiness.

Main thing for me would be freedom/spending more time with family etc. I wouldn't go fulltime online grinding sngs as that would defeat the object for me, probs would look to value hunt low stakes live comps/play cash. Saying that if i had 83k in my hand would buying a new car and a deposit on a new house make me happier than going pro? who knows?

I think for us taking shots at fulltime playing is more like a career break as opposed to if you are a bit younger/haven't really had a career then you will probs have to start at the bottom which is much harder imo, plus as you said the salary wont be as appealing, neither will the early mornings or having a boss. (I still struggle with authority to this very day, even after 8yrs in the military)

I am religous with putting exact figures on everything as its a massive part of my job and that's just how I am in general, plus it gives me a chance to make a spreadsheet so i can evaluate in real terms. 10 +8k yrs and we are there... wiiiiiiiii.

Interesting. And doubtless very true, I've read lots of stuff actually about how playing poker is often a "losing decision" for a lot of poker players in their early 20s. Im actually quite convinced this is prolly true.

Yeah - anyone who is clever enough to make decent money playing poker in their early 20s could easily make more money doing something else instead.

Poker has no career progression - in fact projected earnings decline as the games get tougher, even if the player improves their game.

Excluding trading, what other things Andrew?

People often say this with little to no supporting evidence as to why. These are the kind of people happy to drop out of university, often with an inability to adjust to normal social conventions and a disregard for authority.

Intelligence does not a successful man make. Often it's a hindrance.

Sorry obviously I mean intelligence ALONE does not blah blah

People like Bill Gates?

And whilst intelligence is obv only one part, in order to make serious money at poker, you have to grind, put in the hours, work hard - this added to the cleverness is what gets you ahead in life. In any vaguely technical career - not just trading or something exclusively numbers-based.

For every Bill Gates there are thousands of guys who have all his attributes and none of his success. And to be fair with 6 billion people in the world and endless diversity obviously there are going to be many exceptions to every rule.

But I do see what you're saying. I just think this is thrown out far far too easily by older guys (I'm one of them) who don't understand how tough it is for people in their 20s right now. IMO it gives a totally false impression of the opportunities that are available to them.

To succeed in the real world arguably some of the most important skills are communication, the ability to work well WITH other people and the ability to present yourself well (and indeed present well). Someone who has been a success working for themselves is not necessarily going to have many transferable skills in the modern office workplace.

That's not to say they can't be a success in other fields, or indeed set up their own business and be a huge success at that. But I do think this comment is thrown around far too lazily and doesn't accurately reflect the modern working world.

And I say that as someone who has interviewed and worked with lots of poker players in an office environment.

also the fact that every person who will on average earn say 15-20k a year can "relatively easily" earn 30k+ a year in poker.

Indeed. False impressions on both sides.

I think people do underestimate how many intelligent people there are out there in their 20s without good jobs who really really want one. They are hungry, prepared to work long hours and weekends and take shit from a boss who they hate to get ahead.

How many poker players are prepared to do that?

This is only because we've seen the other side of the coin. I'd challenge anyone to be a winning poker player with all the perks of that (no alarms, travelling etc) for a few years and then still have the drive to work a 60-70 hour week for the man.

The problem is that all the available jobs don't have to be "working for the man" which i assume you mean to be an oppressive corporate enviroment.  I will never work in that kind of enviroment again.  I don't thrive there and office politics gets me down and if my choice had between that and grinding it up by walking around 15-20 betting shops every day to get my bets on hustling myself back into the game that way i would have reluctantly done the latter.  Every career be it playing poker, betting sports, working at McDonalds or being a trader at JP Morgan requires a lot of hours and dedication if you are to be successful.  For sure some of those options require a morning commute from the suburbs into a big city crushed together like cattle and punishment if you clock in past 9am with an hour for your lunch and disciplinary proceedings if you spend more than 10 minutes on the toilet for two days in a row but for an intelligent self starter the options are more varied than that.  My current role I work a lot of hours but I pretty much decide them and I am competely free to pursue my own betting alongside it.  When I am in the office I wear shorts and flip flops and come and go as I please.  This is in part because I am trusted and partly because they understood the way i wanted to approach it when I took the job. 

Good post Stu - I think you make some good points, however the reality is you are able to work that way now and make those choices because you are 1. Obviously very good at what you do, based on the hardwork and dedication you put in and 2. Work in a profession where it's more acceptable and less corporate.

The problem is that alot of players who haven't "learned there trade" will never get enough experience to make the choices you talked about. It's the same for me; the reason I can consult and pick a contract in a non corporate, gaming based environment is driven by the very fact I did my time for "the man" and learned enough to have credibility to make choices. It's a bit of a cycle.

Love talking about it - obv my fav subject combing people, careers, poker and degens lol

.

wp

Yep, just says it all. /end thread.

Lol you know I am a bit stupid but just come across this thread and found it interesting and wanted it to come up in "show new replies to your post" :)

Was gonna actually ask Shaun how old he is because he must be 10 to 15 years older than I assumed and is also if he had been "desperately seeking Suzanne" or just prefered playing the field as it were.

41 mate - obv look in my early 30a and like to hang around with young peoe to make me perpetuate the myth, other than the odd dinner with the clown Celtic, who believe it or not is two years younger than me.

Both, like to chase young women, preferably the ones you don't pay for. Gets harder the older you get...maybe time to look for Suzanne lol

Cheers. I did not think either yourself or Vinny were anywhere near that age.

Is it really "relatively easy" to earn 30k year playing poker?

It is if you're the best in the business.

Yes. Presuming you spend anywhere near the amount of hoes as you would in a full time job an remember... No tax

Are you levelling here patrick?

I can't afford dem hoes no more. :)

Surely it can't be that easy to make £30k can it. Is it possible to teach old dogs new tricks?

Sorry iPhone, hours lol

Anybody playing full time should be able to make 30k. Obviously if you're playing nl2 it's not possible lok but less than 3k per month should be routine. You'd get that in rake back alone I you're playing close to work hours. I know guys who play nl10 to support their family on Bulgaria and make about 500per month excluding rakeback.

This is assuming the person is a solid winning player. Which is a ridiculous assumption. Hence it's not 'relatively easy' or 97% of poker players wouldn't be losers.

Oh big congrats on the win btw. Don't think I've said congrats yet.

A breakeven player could prob earn 3/4k a month if they can play 8-10 tables and play 40 hours per week.

Maybe I just know a lot more bad poker players than you guys, but what you just described is so far out of the reach of the vast majority of poker players it's not even funny.

It sounds far too good to be true but I don't doubt either Ryan or Patricks words.

I don't doubt them either. I just disagree with that being 'relatively easy' for the average punter. I think maybe I misunderstood Pleno though. I think he was talking about relatively easy for someone who was already playing full time. Apologies if so.

I don't think it's easy to earn £30k a year at all, In fact beating poker has become so difficult imo.

True enough if you have a decent fundamental understanding of the game and are prepared to work and grind 40-50 hours per week with a good rakeback deal you should be able to make £2,000-£4,000 a month but it's really not that simple.

Yeh it's not like you could take any kid on the dole and coach them for a few weeks and they'd snap be able to make £500/month at 10nl.

But if I went busto, I'm certain I'd be able to make a bowl/month grinding ssnl or hu sngs as would any decent player.

Of course it isn't easy but I know that a lot of  average players who play just for rakeback.

Anyone with a decent understanding of the game and who can play lots of tables could easily achieve a couple of grand a month.  It requires playing like a robot but money is money.  John Black wouldn't approve tho :p

Hope this is not taken as me trying to be smart or clever but if u agree with pleno that 30k is "relatively easy" then y dont u jus do that. If ur horses did the same as I presume u see them as better than average then along with ur easy 30k ur spilt of ur horses easy 30k and ur annual Monte Carlo bink and live cash game wins u wud b on a very tidy "relatively easy" not too shabby small fortune. Like I said I mean no mocking just asking you cos I follow ur blog and really admire wot u do  and wud b interested in ur thoughts.

It's because it's not relatively easy. Obv otherwise everyone would do it.

Ps if anyone can prove it is relatively easy to make 30k. How much wud it cost to teach me to do it cos a "relatively easy" £30k a year wud seriously help mine and my kids lives. ty

pps. sooner the better school jus started and they need new shoes

Not sure I understand the question. "Why don't I just do that?" you said. Well, er, I do? Sorry if i've misunderstood.

I could pick over 50 people from real life, if they gave me their dedication and put 100pc of their time into it then I'm pretty certain over 40 would be able to do it.

The reason it doesn't work is because of commitment or time.

Im pretty sure for example that anybody that's played high level gaming could be taught easily to beat the games, with all due respect, nl100 and to some extent nl200 are very easy limits to beat the usual reasons nlfor not beating the game are psychological. See John black, he can play well for 70pc
Of the time but just had this huge boulder in the way to make him spew for the other 20pc. If it was his full time job and he depended on it it would be a different story and this ATM he is struggling to beat nl10.

Simple factor is that people just don't have the time to put into it which is obvious. I work for the second biggest poker site in the world after stars and we operate in 19 languages, in countries such as Bulgaria and Romania not working and playin nl10:25 is seen as v v good and they regularly make decent amounts to support their family and usually education.

I started staking people last year with the hope that somebody would rise through and be in a place with almost all of them the main problem has been time or psychological, mainly because they don't play full time.

Trading companies regularly advertise for apprentices, I wonder if I put an advert out for an intern to come and work for me as a professional poker play where I housed/fed/trained then how much response I would get, it would be interesting if those graduates from good universities would be interested.

Watch this space!

I presumed pleno was referencing easy £30k online. I know u do very well live but I didnt think from the limited info available you were doing great online (not suggesting ur bad jus thought u were slightly up on some sites and slightly down on others) ie not making the "easy 30k" Also thought ur horses were in make up. My point being if it is "relatively easy" then you wud be a lock to do it so y not jus do that and teach your horses to  do same and added with ur live success = easy life. If you and ur horses are making an easy £30k then I apologise for my ignorance and congratulate u all and will stfu. If someone like ureslf (who I consider a very good player) and ur horses are not making "relatively easy " £30k a year then this suggests as I 1st thought it is not easy at all. hope this is less confusing ... prob not but eh oh!

Can also do a prop bet with people who dot think they will
Make 30k etc could be really interesting.

How many people do you think would apply? On the job description it wouldn't say the actual role, just the desired attributes etc.

Dubai can visit and give the Matt Damon speech.

Could actually get 2-3 guys in and house together and his learn together etc.

With all the garbage reality tv shows on at mo I think this has legs. Get lil dave involved and make it happen.

Aplenotice  ;hide;

pleno's talking about working 40/50 hours a week grinding online - I couldn't just "add that" to my live schedule. I've been playing probably 20 hours a week online for the last 4/5 months and done OK, but not winning much, but the variance is so big in MTTs that the results in that time matter very little.

Horses are always in makeup, everytime they play a comp they're in makeup. Overall they're doing very good and  will get better over time I'm sure.

Sign me up instead of a random please pleno

Yeah I get all that.. MTT big variance etc my point was because of this y not jus go down the easy £30k route and clone it X number of times via teaching pupils = £lots. obv not that easy and I was prob being a bit flippant as I believe pleno was when he stated it.  Altho pleno finds it relatively easy in reality it cant be that easy for even those slightly above average or everyone wud do it. Ty for replying will draw a line under it now and gl with ur mtt grind and ur stable.

LOL

yeh its not that easy to teach people and would take loads of my time...lots of other things you're overlooking but yeh, let's draw a line under it for now!

LOL.. what was I overlooking that would make it easier to make £30k or be a good reaon to not to go down the route of making a relatively easy £30k a year, My original point based around I disagree that it is "relatively easy" to make £30k and I was merely asking for ur opinion cos u seemed to back up plenos statement and  I really do enjoy ur blog and respect ur professionalism which is somethin I can only aspire to. As A pro I wud of thought making a "relatively easy £30k wud appeal to u if it were possible. I really wud of ended it had u not said "lots of other things you're overlooking" which I thought a little condesending. No harm done I am still a fanboy

It's really my as simple as you say, likewise it's not as simple as I say either.

People are really lazy or they are v über airworthy. People give up far too easily and people are scared to commit or take a chance.

There is less than 0.1% of people who would actually give up their 20k year a job to try and make a success of this and rightfully so as a lot of people won't have coaxes or people to hold their hand.

Douglas rider actually recently took 3 Chinese geniuses on and rougt them to Vegas iirc they went from nl100 to ml10k. V quick and after 3 months playing poker one knocked Philip Ivey donut out of the 10k shoot out in the WSOP.

I'm certain that for example a Maths based guy who is quite streetwise and normal would make a very good wage. It's just so unrealistic that this happens. Regarding stables, again this is very unlikely for example in my stable I have a guy who IRS to Nigeria and offline for a month very now r then a poker room dealer who works on weekends when the games are tough and a guy who works long hours in it ad then goes home to see his family on the weekend.

Poker takes a backseat, rightfully so and of anything all of these guys should probably just completely forget about poker and enjoy their social times with friends or doing other things than grinding small cash games as in 80pc of occasions they will just not be able to overcome the time issues and also when they do play they will e v tired/not focused and lose concentration, a la John black.

He's perfect example if he actually played full time and had to pay bills and played when he wants rather than having I feel like he needs to win x amount in each session e would probably be very successful. He fact is he has a job, travels in his job and has a gf. He really loves the game and tries very hard the simple fact is its just difficult to put learning and playing poker alogosde a normal life.

This comes from a guy who works a full time job, plays football 3 times a week, coaches 15 hours a month, tries to run a stable and then fit in time for poker!

Also oce Ouge spent 70 houris and taught then to play and they have their own bankroll good luck making then continue to play for you.

The only thing I know that is 100% certain is that you phone is a cheap copy from china :)

I think this probably helps confirm that it is not relatively easy to make £30k. yes it may be relatively easy to give people skills to play gud poker but if they are not mentally tough, have great discipline, willingness to learn and adapt they still are not gonna b hugely successful. Many many talented kids have the skill to play great football but if they are not committed and dedicated and confident and willing to learn thay to will not make it. Skill in football or poker is not enough therefore the other disciplines needed play a huge part in the make up of being successful hence why it is difficult to make £30k and not relatively easy...you are not the norm so to u things seem easy to most they can only dream of ur succes. long may it continue.... over and out

When I say it's relatively easy to make 30k I mean if you treat it as a full time job and put in the required hours a effort.

It's like saying oh yeh if I have a shit say at work I'm just going to leave. Unfortunately you can just say fuck you boss.

But ok cool been pretty good thread lol

pleno, get better at phone typos ffs

xx

I still quite new to this so have had my bit of fun,  I will retreat to the back benches again now and leave it to herbie and the rest of the pros. I am starting to bore myself. GL with it all, win the world

Unfortunately you're wrong about this pleno, not everybody can make a living playing poker even if they do put the effort in. I dont entirely know why, it's probably a different reason for every different individual, but what I can tell you for sure is that the only way to make money from staking is to stake winning players. You can either take my word for this or spend a lot of time and money finding it out for yourself, like I did. Spose your idea might make a passable reality tv show, if you combined it with some kind of shore maybe.

Stock market equivalent; http://www.investopedia.com/articles/trading/08/turtle-trading.asp#axzz26P4nyTal (http://www.investopedia.com/articles/trading/08/turtle-trading.asp#axzz26P4nyTal)

100% +1 Keys

I've actually typed out two long replies to why it isn't as easy as you say, but disagreed in principal to both of them reading it back. Making money from poker is hard, no matter what anyone tells me.  I've got a lot to say on the subject, but will save it for later.

What I will say though is I thoroughly get why someone like you should find it simple enough to make £30k p/a at poker. You have to understand your knowledge/position in the game is very high compared to the "stnd" player.

(thats a compliment btw :) )

But thu don't have to beAt the game? They can win at like 1bb/100 and earn more than 30k in rakeback.

The British Shaun Deeb imo. Can someone start translating Pleno's posts please?

This comes back to what I said earlier about intelligence sometimes being a hindrance. Intelligent people sometimes really struggle to explain themselves to less intelligent people (think of a shit professor for anyone who went to uni). And they frequently fail to understand just how hard some people find the things they find really fkn easy. Same applies for people who are really good at poker. I know plenty of smart people who just don't get poker and probably never will.

Translation: Anyone can be the best in the business if they put their mind to it.

Winning at 1bb/100 is harder than you think. 1bb/100 post-rake is actually equivalent to something like 11bb/100 pre-rake at 50nl. I seem to remember you posting about this before somewhere so you can probably give more accurate numbers than that.


I know exactly what you mean, I actually disagree with myself in principal as well :D

By which I mean I don't believe I'm special or have some kind of innate talent for poker, and it should be just a matter of hard work and quality teaching. I think it's just really a matter of timescales, IMO it'd take a minimum of 18 months and probably more like 3-5 years of quality practice (low number of tables) to get to a level where one could make a living from the game, for a total beginner. No staker I know has the money or patience to get through that process with someone, thus I just don't think it's viable to take losing players and turn them into winning horses.

At least half of the population just wouldn't have good enough number sense to ever be profitable at poker, even before you take in to account any of the subtler skills.

call

also regarding the many many guys who play MTT's and are in huge Makeup, how exactly does it work?

In before Herbie

Herbie's right all along obv. 

cliffs to herbie therom.

Arent horses always in make up until they bink one then split overall profit then next MTT they lose back in make up?

Herbie used to always show up in these threads with theories around the long run profitability of people who needed backing. 

Read the link? Also interviews in a lil book called "Stock Market Wizards" cba to find which edition tho

It is a literally incredible story.

Yah, is unbelievable. 

It was all bollocks. 18 months of cashing 50% of the tournies I played to 18 months of only cashing when the planets aligned and I am now skint, trying to sell the Porsche and on the waiting list to be the guy collecting the trolleys around Asda.

Titty was right all along. You are only any good at the game if you can fail to make day 2 of the Dtd monthly deepstack for a full 2 years. Wish I had listened to him about variance and put some away for the monsoon season :)

New market wizards by Jack D Schwager


" I must create a system or be enslaved by another mans "