What is good BRM? Savings?

[millidonk]

Lots of good posts itt.

Question. Shaun do you have a trigger for getting back into poker full time?

Ask this because I played for a living for 6 months having a mortgage and very similar outgoings to yourself. At the time I had quite a relaxed attitude to risk, played with 2 months bills and small amount of savings but even though I did well I quickly lost my bottle and the pressure of not having enough money behind me affected my mental state and as a result also my game.

Now I work in the financial sector my attitude to risk has somewhat changed. I have worked out I would not play poker full time again unless I had 83k behind me. May be seen as a bit of overkill but works out as;

24k cover outgoings year 1
30k poker bankroll
24k bills to cover a year job searching if poker roll is bust.
5k holidays year 1

Here's hoping..

[claypole]

It's a really interesting area, as it's also about your playing preference linked to desire - and also the "opportunity cost" of your earnings capability.

In terms of the first area, I had no desire to 24 table SNGs or grind $10 ABI MTTs - I wouldn't enjoy that, it's not what poker is about to me; probably brain a a bit slow. I also found it difficult to motivate myself to drop down levels, some of that is ego, some excitement levels - but some is linked to my second point, opportunity cost of poker.

I had a reasonably successful career, quickly - and lnew my value in job market. Whilst at times I hated corporate life, and happiness was part of my decision to play and quit work, you do have to consider them side by side. If my choice was flipping burgers or grinding $6 sngs, think I'd do the later.  I think it's a really interesting discussion for the likes of Dave, Alex - well most of the good players who are young. They're all very bright, however unless they succeed in entrepreneurial areas, it'll be tough to get a career that meets their needs (money, lifestyle) in late twenties. I had dinner with a bunch of senior traders last night and MD of an offshore sports book and was advocating targeting poker players as trainees; he was saying problem is most won't look at starting salaries, or I'd they do yearn to go back to poker.  So he'd rather take 18/19 year old tjunior traders who Want the job on 19k and grow them. He thought the city was a better option for really bright ones.

Think it just reconfirms Daves point; so many factors at play and no right or wrong answer. I have a ton of respect for the younger lads I know that play and really annoyed when oldies say "what will you do in 10 years" blah blah blah - least they are making a positive choice.

One thing I would say, whatever you do the +Ev happiness element is key.

[claypole]

Milli - probably not a trigger to get back full time. I have an amount of money target that allows me to have choices; the choices are more likely to be a three month stint travelling, some shots like WSOP Australia, or more likely be selective about the work I take on I.e. stuff I enjoy, or start a business (working on a couple of ideas)

But again, it's back to the happiness point and personal choice...I'm a big kid that doesn't want to feel trapped again after feeling that way 25-39 with career. I'm also lucky in the fact I haven't got myself into the "one" relationship wise!

[claypole]

Ps - hate talking money as always feel a bit obscene, but my numbers within 20% of yours lol

[millidonk]

Raise a lot of good points there and massively agree with the +ev of happiness.

Main thing for me would be freedom/spending more time with family etc. I wouldn't go fulltime online grinding sngs as that would defeat the object for me, probs would look to value hunt low stakes live comps/play cash. Saying that if i had 83k in my hand would buying a new car and a deposit on a new house make me happier than going pro? who knows?

I think for us taking shots at fulltime playing is more like a career break as opposed to if you are a bit younger/haven't really had a career then you will probs have to start at the bottom which is much harder imo, plus as you said the salary wont be as appealing, neither will the early mornings or having a boss. (I still struggle with authority to this very day, even after 8yrs in the military)

I am religous with putting exact figures on everything as its a massive part of my job and that's just how I am in general, plus it gives me a chance to make a spreadsheet so i can evaluate in real terms. 10 +8k yrs and we are there... wiiiiiiiii.

[SuuPRlim]

I had dinner with a bunch of senior traders last night and MD of an offshore sports book and was advocating targeting poker players as trainees; he was saying problem is most won't look at starting salaries, or I'd they do yearn to go back to poker.  So he'd rather take 18/19 year old tjunior traders who Want the job on 19k and grow them. He thought the city was a better option for really bright ones.

Interesting. And doubtless very true, I've read lots of stuff actually about how playing poker is often a "losing decision" for a lot of poker players in their early 20s. Im actually quite convinced this is prolly true.

[AndrewT]

I had dinner with a bunch of senior traders last night and MD of an offshore sports book and was advocating targeting poker players as trainees; he was saying problem is most won't look at starting salaries, or I'd they do yearn to go back to poker.  So he'd rather take 18/19 year old tjunior traders who Want the job on 19k and grow them. He thought the city was a better option for really bright ones.

Interesting. And doubtless very true, I've read lots of stuff actually about how playing poker is often a "losing decision" for a lot of poker players in their early 20s. Im actually quite convinced this is prolly true.

Yeah - anyone who is clever enough to make decent money playing poker in their early 20s could easily make more money doing something else instead.

Poker has no career progression - in fact projected earnings decline as the games get tougher, even if the player improves their game.

[pleno1]

Excluding trading, what other things Andrew?

[AlunB]

Yeah - anyone who is clever enough to make decent money playing poker in their early 20s could easily make more money doing something else instead.

People often say this with little to no supporting evidence as to why. These are the kind of people happy to drop out of university, often with an inability to adjust to normal social conventions and a disregard for authority.

Intelligence does not a successful man make. Often it's a hindrance.

[AlunB]

Sorry obviously I mean intelligence ALONE does not blah blah

[AndrewT]

Yeah - anyone who is clever enough to make decent money playing poker in their early 20s could easily make more money doing something else instead.

People often say this with little to no supporting evidence as to why. These are the kind of people happy to drop out of university, often with an inability to adjust to normal social conventions and a disregard for authority.

People like Bill Gates?

And whilst intelligence is obv only one part, in order to make serious money at poker, you have to grind, put in the hours, work hard - this added to the cleverness is what gets you ahead in life. In any vaguely technical career - not just trading or something exclusively numbers-based.

[AlunB]

For every Bill Gates there are thousands of guys who have all his attributes and none of his success. And to be fair with 6 billion people in the world and endless diversity obviously there are going to be many exceptions to every rule.

But I do see what you're saying. I just think this is thrown out far far too easily by older guys (I'm one of them) who don't understand how tough it is for people in their 20s right now. IMO it gives a totally false impression of the opportunities that are available to them.

To succeed in the real world arguably some of the most important skills are communication, the ability to work well WITH other people and the ability to present yourself well (and indeed present well). Someone who has been a success working for themselves is not necessarily going to have many transferable skills in the modern office workplace.

That's not to say they can't be a success in other fields, or indeed set up their own business and be a huge success at that. But I do think this comment is thrown around far too lazily and doesn't accurately reflect the modern working world.

And I say that as someone who has interviewed and worked with lots of poker players in an office environment.

[pleno1]

also the fact that every person who will on average earn say 15-20k a year can "relatively easily" earn 30k+ a year in poker.

[AlunB]

Indeed. False impressions on both sides.

I think people do underestimate how many intelligent people there are out there in their 20s without good jobs who really really want one. They are hungry, prepared to work long hours and weekends and take shit from a boss who they hate to get ahead.

How many poker players are prepared to do that?

[DMorgan]

How many poker players are prepared to do that?

This is only because we've seen the other side of the coin. I'd challenge anyone to be a winning poker player with all the perks of that (no alarms, travelling etc) for a few years and then still have the drive to work a 60-70 hour week for the man.