blonde poker forum

If I may say firstly, I think DTD, is without a shadow of doubt, the place to play poker. Period. No argue.

They launched a new beginners tournament last night, I assume to encourage more local players to venture into live poker, and into DTD itself. 

From a personal point of view, I thought this was great, as I was starting to think (and still have concerns in light of Mr Yongs recent blog entry) that DTD was moving away from the recreactional /occasional / low buyin player, which to say the least is maybe 95%+ of poker players, towards much more high-buyin / nightly / serious player.  Especially at the weekends when it seems it is £100 + entries.

So my point, and to seek opinion, the beginners tournament was launched, I persuaded a couple of friends from our local home game to come and join in for a taster of proper live poker and we ventured the round trip of nearly 3hrs.

Beforehand I checked as it was a "beginner" set up that having played a few APAT buyins and had been lucky enough to win 2 x £25 buyin tournaments at DTD, would I be eligable to play.

I was told that no restrictions are in place, but that it would be something that they'd maybe monitor.  Ie/ If someone won it every time, they'd be politely asked to refrain from playing again.

So cliffs (I believe the term is)

24 players turned up
At least 3 or 4 were VERY obviously not beginners, and were on first name terms with the dealers and floor managers, and walking over the table. 
For me this totally spoilt the game, and purpose of the event.  Other regulars came over and were laughing at who was playing
About halfway through the game, the floor manager came over and laughing and spoke to 2 players, asking what they were doing, and have 2 choices.
jokingly get disqualified, or play next Wednesday in a trial Ohama cash thing. It was the most light hearted, vailed threat given.

Thoughts?

My annoyance -

I felt an idiot asking if I was able to play, with a poultry £25 tournament win, when it obvious DTD didn't care who played
Mockery of those who tried to learn/play a possilble first tournament
But mainly that DTD floor managers and TD were laughing along with them at the fact they were playing, and light heartedly saying they shouldn't.

Being fair I acknowledge fully DTD did say they won't monitor who plays.

I felt it was simply laughing at the beginner players, and not taking the tournament seriously at all.

I was embarrased for my friends, and without a doubt they'll not bother again, and to quote " won't bother again, its very clickky"

I have raised these points via e-mail, as it has riled me, which is rare,  and I add again, DTD is the best place to play, just a shame it turned out like it did.

Hi Warren.

I spoke to DTD who tell me there's an email reply on its way to you, addressing the concerns with some stats for you

Interested to know if that helps you

See you soon

Hi Richard,

Many thanks for speaking with them, I look forward to recieving the email, and I'm sure I'll be happy with the resulting stats and feedback

Don't be such a chicken.

Eggsallent post

thanks for the feedback - it is MUCH appreciated, seriously, me and Nick have been chatting about this today and are restricting the event as per the email we sent you. Initially, any player that has played a £50 buy-in or more at DTD (ever) will not be allowed to play in the Beginner, if we have to make it £25 or lower - we will. This beginner comp was a soft launch with no marketing, we expected 18 ish players, hopefully w can build it with genione beginner players as I remember the first time I play live poker and found it daunting. In terms of recreational players, we are committed to poker at all levels but feel our place in the market needs to shift away from the more congested areas that the casinos operate in, its just an ongoing adjustment, nothing too drastic, for example, our Grand Prixs are here to stay.

Thanks again

Aces

The beginners tournament is a great idea and is what attracted me to make my first trip to DTD when you ran the £10+4 about 3 years ago. Great to see it back and I'm sure it'll be very popular once tweaked.

Aces, thanks for the prompt reply. I await the email (have checked just now) and I'm sure it'll assure me at your proposals.

The restrictions you state above would be perfect and it would indeed make it a true beginner tournament, and i will certainly ensure my friends are aware of the tweaks, and the fact that you have again shown your keeness to please as many as possible.

I too remember when the beginner was first launched and the very reason I started playing live. DTD was my first ever live venue.

It's remains my favourite.

So thanks for the reply, and having re read my email from last night I apologies for the non constructive format in which is was written

i suppose you will always get those who see these things like a soft touch to grab a few quid...just like the men who play the women only event at the wsop...(i call them the 90%) it would be a shame for your friends not to give it another go if DTD have tried to eliminate the issues for next time.

Played less than 10 live games myself and i remember i went to my local casino 3 times before plucking up the courage to play...as daft as it seems now it is very intimidating going to your first few especially when it seems clicky with dealers and players and you make mistakes with the bet sizes or folding out of turn etc.

 :)up

It helped very much now I have recieved the reply and stats in question!

Embarrased to say the least, and as a result declined there very kind goodwill gesture.

Cliffs for all-

4 players played over £50 or over tournaments ( the new threshold) of which I was one of them, due to an appearance in a grand prix I'd forgotten about!

Very red faced and embarrased now!

(I'll be honest didn't want to be honest now I know, but is only fair I'm shown up on this occasion!!

I think these beginner tournaments are a great idea to bring back again. I know that when I started the whole casino experience and poker etiquette that comes with the game can be quite intimidating. It is all about comfort and not feeling overwhelmed when first starting out which brings players back regularly. Great initiative at DTD and I hope the beginner tournaments work out as intended and are a great success.

Surely the buy-in is what restricts it to a beginners' comp?  If there are any 'regulars' who want to play a comp with a £25 or lower buy-in then it probably suggests they aren't going to be the best players.  If they were any good they'd be playing a larger comp or the cash games.

Maybe £25 is still appealing to them, but maybe £15 or lower would work to restrict the players to 'beginners'.

Think the comp was £10 + £4?

I think restricting it is a good idea, but if you make it a rule, I think you have to be flexible on the 'if you've played a tourney over £50 you're not aloud in'.

My Dad, Brother, and a few friends have all played £50 tourneys but not by choice, that was the only option.  (At the times they went.)  They are beginners, novices, know there limits who want to play live poker, but not spend £25+.  So this tourney would be perfect for them but to discount them just because they had no other option??  To give it some added perspective, my Dad has been in once this year, he'll maybe come in a few times again this year.  The others I doubt will if the only option is £25+.

Would it not be simpler to restrict it to players who have not cashed in a £50+ tourney?

Lol. Don't be embarrassed by this as these things happen to us all. Hope your mates give Dtd another shot after reading this

One problem with the £50 buyin rule is that back when DTD used to run a £15+5 and a £50+6 with the latter starting half an hour later, sometimes beginners would bust out of the £15 and give the £50 a shot because they weren't ready to call it a night. Nothing to do with ability, simply not wanting to go home yet because they were out for a night of entertainment. I think back when they used to run the beginner's comp, you had 3 "strikes" in the £50 comp, which allowed for the one or two times these players had moved over to the £50 after an early exit, without punishing genuine beginners who just wanted a one-off punt.

My experience from dealing beginner's tournaments and freerolls is that the dealers need to be more relaxed when it comes to mistakes made from obvious beginners (string bets, out of turn actions, etc) so that it isn't a horrifying and daunting experience. And as painful as it is as a member of staff who needs any sort of stimulation to help them grind out the shift, it is really important for the future of the game to ensure that the place doesn't feel cliquey.

I know Dusk have been working very hard to bring in a pool of new players. The smaller cash games idea didn't go down well, but the reintroduction of this tournament is a great idea. Well done Simon and Rob.

Warren I hope your friends won't be put off by their one-off experience, and I hope the restrictions in place are just relaxed enough to allow you to keep bringing them back.

Yeh perhaps tell the dealers and floor staff to a bit more friendly and lenient with newcomers with the string bet and other such rules. Obviously the rules have to be there, but they can be explained in a friendlier way and perhaps if discretion and common sensed was used a bit more it'd be less daunting an experience for them.

maybe they should ask beginners to be seated/turn up say 15/20mins before the comp starts where they can be given  a fact sheet on the do's and do not's at the table and have a dealer available to answer any question's/queries the new player may have?
 sure if the new players feel like they are being given help on what to do and not what to do before they sit down and play they will get a better experience, rather than just being told in game that they that are not doing things correctly and getting penalized or feeling embarrassed about making mistakes?

One player in the night kept getting picked up on it, so Defo dealers be a bit more flexi, that said must be hard for them as they are drilled it to ensure everything is perfect.

So to "untrain" that isn't easy to be fair.

I will show my friends this and I'm sure they'll be back. I just won't play!!

I think its important that this tournamant is for genuine novices/beginners, NOT experienced players that can only afford £10. I am confident that the £50 restriction will eliminate these initial problems, although I know the £25 restriction definatley will, so that's my preference, but I know Nick is right on top of this issue. We havn't marketed the Beginner comp yet, when we are happy with the format we will market it to all players in our Poker League and I am sure existing members will start to bring their mate/mrs when it gets up and running, we got our £10 Thursday Beginner up to 100+ players a few years ago but with the introduction of the £15 comps, it faded away which was a miskake on our part, as many new players came through this route and are DTD regulars now.

I would say we will prob do this twice a week if the Beginner goes above 60+ runners, I think it works better at 30 ish runners as I think the players more attention/looking after, the emphasis on teaching new players the rules rather than enforcing them. DTD can be a daunting place on your first visit, I think its the open plan of the card room that sometimes intimidates first timers, for sure, we dont want the club to come accross like that.

I will have a word with Danny about general etiquette towards players in the comp.

Cheers Rob

Like the ideas ^

Especially about rules sheet/ q/a 15 mins before.

Get the dealers to encourage questions before play starts and during - after a hand has finished obv.

The Vic used to have a good beginners tournament - it helped that the staff and regulars were friendly to newbies - but one idea they had which could be used was that the beginners tournament was a satellite to the evening tournament.

So if it's £20 entry and there's a £60 evening tournament you get 1 in 3 beginners winning and having the choice as to whether to keep the money or play in the evening. But also because the prize money is limited to £60 it discourages the more experienced players to participate (even more than the £20 entry).

They're there to play poker and have a fun evening, not receive a lecture. Talk to them for 20 minutes and they might not have a clue what you're on about.

The best way is to learn by playing.

I expect I was one of the 4 that entered the beginner comp that, according to DTD, maybe I shouldn't.

I played in this as I very much regard myself as a beginner as it was only my 6 or 7th live tournament in 3 years (I think).  DTD is the only place I have ever played live and I get to go about once every 6 months.

I played 1 tournament over £50 when DTD first opened as, at that time, I had a few quid and didn't have any kids....the other tourneys have been either the £15 or £25 ones.  I'm gutted that this one tournament I played in has now knackered me from playing this.  Unfortunately the £25 + 6 is a bit much for me at the moment.

I fully understand that DTD has to draw the line somewhere to ensure only beginners play.  I also noted that some in this tournament I have seen there before, and I knew they weren't beginners.

As someone who can only get 2 or 3 times a year due to work, and the kids etc, DTD can be a daunting place and I still shake like an idiot when I play.  Don't let your experience put you off as the more you go the easier it gets.

I like the sound of limiting it to those who have not cashed in a £50 plus tournament as it means I can play, but I get that the tournament has to be mainly for players new to the game.

 If your shaking, nervous or intimidated I suggest another hobby!

Bollocks, I was like that the first few times I played live poker.

same

I still see some of the best players in the game shaking at times,

Talking about tikay?  Bit harsh...

My shakes come from the fear of making mistakes and looking a bit daft, not because people put lots of chips across the line and say "all in" in a deep voice!

To say people who are nervous should find a new hobby is the type of attitude that puts people off from actually going and playing live poker.  You should embrace us, we are your bread and butter for making money!

Talking about tikay being some of the best players is stretching it a bit... Now that's harsh :)

I don't shake/show it but the first couple of hands I play in a comp I do feel nervous. No idea why!

Jason you are my hero. I bet you make i few old pros shake (sounds wrong)

My comment was a bit tongue in cheek tbf. However some advice for those starting out. Irrespective of who you are facing confidence and 'show' are what you need to suceed in this game, amongst all the other things. When you sit down for the first few times, tell yourself you are the best at the table and act the same. Repeat ad infinitum. There, my secrets out.

I think people should just worry about the basics first and enjoying themselves, that's pretty much it until they suss it out a bit more.

Dont disagree, they should try and do as much of the 'right' things that they can that ensures that they are the one taking home other peoples money.

Derailing slightly.......obviously there is the £10 + 4 beginners tournament, is it possible to get a beginners cash game going?

This could be 50p £1 like they already have but, impose conditions on this such as "non regulars" ie haven't played cash at the club for 3 weeks for example or whatever...

Probably hard to police the criteria, but maybe there could be some conditions that could be imposed ?

Would probably get new cash players at the tables?

I was gonna have a blast myself last Thursday, until I noticed it was full of regs, but I suppose if you don't try, you don't learn.  Maybe there's something that can be done to get new players in at the lowest level of cash?

Doing this on beginners night seems to make sense to me.

Firstly, just want to point out that I shake like a leaf when I've not played live for a while. Its not fear, its not nerves, its adrenaline and excitement. I'm sure this is true for a lot of people.

Secondly, wanted to give a dealers point of view. Keep in mind here I've been dealing for about 3 years and probably 3/4 of that was in casinos where there are beginners every night. Its not difficult to spot these guys and give them a bit of a hand. I've ALWAYS given people one chance with string betting. If they do the old "I'm gonna sprinkle my chips in", I'll point out to them that this isn't allowed and that they either have to place them all in at once, or announce the amount beforehand at which point they can do whatever they want. This also points it out to others who may be unsure. Its a little more difficult with the single chip rule, but if you ask them immediately, point out the rule and let it slide, its a lot easier.

I think a lot of the dealers dont use their discretion as they think that someone will kick off and they'll get in trouble. It was always easier for me as I was a cardroom supervisor anyway, so what I said went and people trusted my opinion. This is harder in DTD as there is such a wide level of experience. I do believe that if the staff were told they can use their discretion, things would be a lot easier.

Lastly, I think the idea itself is brilliant, and I know DTD will sort a restriction that will suit all parties. At the end of the day, beginners play poker as a night out to have fun, not to win life changing money. I think that this will soon be reflected in the tournament.

The problem with dealers using their discretion is that more than one dealer will deal to a table in a night. The idea of a beginner tournament is so players can learn the game and the rules without spending allot of money. It's better to follow the rules strictly but they be explained in a positive way after a mistake. This is true for any beginner playing any buy-in tournament I feel. Just because a tournament is for beginners doesn't mean the rules shouldn't be followed, it just means punishment and the explanation of the rules should be slightly different.

In example:

Beginner throws in a large chip without saying anything. Dealer: "call" Player: "no i raised" Dealer: "unfortunately if you throw one large chip in without saying anything it goes as a call, you might have only wanted change. In future say what you want to happen and you can't go wrong" Player: "ok sorry" Dealer: "no problem it is a call" action continues

Experienced regular throws in a large chip without saying raise. Dealer: "call" Player: "sigh! forgot to say" the rest of the table limp behind to try and crack his big hand.....

Where and when did every one play there first live club casino game  ?


for me it was 5 years ago and i still consider myself a live game beginner

mistake i keep making  is betting out of turn  ( done this more than once )


so much easier on tinternet

Blackpool Tiberius casino, fuck knows how long ago, but at least 10 years I think.

4 years or so ago at DTD played the beginner tournament in the old days. 3 thousand chips 10 minute clock.

had been playing full time oniline for nearly a year before i played. going from 10 tabling 3/6lhe like a champ to being a nervous wreck over a tourney that cost me 3 big bets to enter.. now im so comfortable live i prefer it to online

big +1 to this.  Cash games scary the bejeeves out of me at DTD, always seem again clikky, and full of reg who i fear would simply eat me up, I'd not help to think that the whole table (no doubt correctly) all look at each other and smile!

Rounders/Atlantic City springs to mind!

Cash games are definitely more intimidating for beginners than tournaments imo. 

A beginners cash game would be a very good idea (especially on the night of the beginners' tournament) - not sure DTD would want to offer a game lower than the .50/1 with £100 max buy-in though?

Keep it at 50p £1.......just need the criteria to get the new guys in and the regs away from the table.  I have only played 50p £1 at DTD but got eaten by the ones with the deep pockets and the experience.

There aren't really records of who has and who hasn't played cash though. Maybe only those who played the beginners comp?

Beginners cash sounds like a nice idea but wouldnt work; firstly as Kinboshi says how do you track beginners in cash, secondly, how is the house going to get the correct amount of players at one time to fill the table. Finally, judging by a lot of comments from beginners they are just not rolled to play cash at a level that would suit the house.

50p 50p keeps the pros off cos it too small maybe pay sessions on this game rather than rake?

Hi

Yes the beginner cash game does need some thought, i will discuss with the team and try to accommodate

On facebook:

OMAHA LIVE CASH GAMES tonight at DTD 8pm start should be a good busy night everyone dont miss out - games start at 50p/50p £20 min sit down so no excuses :-)

A good idea for Omahahahaha noobs.

this was the "punishment" for the players that played the other night!