blonde poker forum

"I had a huge adrenaline rush, love the choice, I love it, I love it... I hope I'm in the room when he dies."

These were not the words of James Holmes, the man who killed 12 people at a cinema in Aurora, Colorado last year though.

These were uttered by the best friend of someone he killed when he learned prosecutors planned to press for the death penalty for Holmes at his upcoming trial.

The USA is one fucked up country.

As Oscar Wilde said, the only country to go from barbarism to decadence without going through civilisation first.

I am pro death penalty, but I wouldn't express my support for it in these words.  However, in this case the death penalty is absolutely justfied in my opinon.

I don't agree with the death penalty, and don't agree with the words that the friend has spoken.

But not sure they're the words of a 'murderer'.

I should have put a question mark at the end of the title.

I am no shrink, but do you really think this was the actions of a sane man?

Lock him up and throw away the key sure, but if you put him to death you are dragging society down to his level.

I'm pretty sure that if someone had killed my best friend I'd have exactly the same thoughts. Much better to have the justice system kill him than have to worry about wanting to do it myself so yes, at the moment of finding out I think an adrenaline rush would be on the cards.

Whether I'd vocalise my thoughts is a different matter altogether.

I certainly can't see why someone having this thought process makes the USA 'fucked up'? Seems a perfectly natural reaction in my opinion.

Either would suffice in my opinion.

I'm pretty sure death is a much better deterrent to stop other psychopaths copying him in the future though so it would definitely be my preference.

The death penalty acts as a deterrent, in particular to other psychopaths?  Do you have the figures to back that up?

I'm sure many people will disagree with me, but if a man walks into a cinema and shoots kids in their seats, I don't really care if he is insane or not.  We should dispatch him and allow society to high five itself as morale is repaired.   It's not about deterrent for me - just vengence for society.  I concede I am a bit of a caveman in this regard though.

From the reports on the trial and especially his court appearances in the days immediately after I would say this guy is 100% not sane.

Death penalty has zero deterrent effect - no one thinks 'If I get caught killing this guy I'll spend the rest of my life in prison - that's OK. Good job there isn't the death penalty, or I wouldn't do this'

The only reason to have the death penalty is economic - 5 feet of rope is way cheaper than keeping someone in prison for 40 years.

No - there is another reason.  Death penalty boosts the collective morale of society to see ultimate justice served.

So cost and morale.  Good enough reasons for me.

I don't necessarily agree with the deterrent issue either.  If a friend asked me to hold his bag of coke for him while he went to the toliet I'd probably be okay with it in this country.  Less so in Bali/Thailand or wherever it is where they hang you.

Of course I have figures. I wouldn't have said it otherwise. I also have independent scientific studies at my disposal which prove everything I say beyond any doubt.

Unfortunately I keep all the evidence in my pants and you aren't allowed access so you'll have to take my word for it.

Do you have figures to back that up?

I don't mind if you keep the figures in your pants, I'll just take your word for it.

Ask yourself a question.....If someone murdered someone close to you, would you want the death penalty to be actioned?

Me.....absolutely, but after I had the chance to give them a right good kicking.

Now that would be an adrenaline rush!

Sick stuff I know, but, emotion brings out the best/worst in people.

It'll stop that fucker from doing it again.

(http://www.amnestyusa.org/sites/default/files/images/DPvNonDPStates.jpg)

There will be other factors as well (death penalty states may have something else in common which  makes them more violent, for example)


So does life in prison.

Not when they sentence the wrong person.

So does life in prison.
[/quote]

I've heard of a lifer murdering again, but corpses never do.

I've heard of a lifer murdering again, but corpses never do.
[/quote]

I've heard of people wrongly convicted and sentenced to life-imprisonment being released on appeal but .....

From Wik;i

"There has been much debate about the justification of imposing capital punishment on individuals who have been diagnosed with mental retardation. Some have argued that the execution of people with mental retardation constitutes cruel and unusual punishment as it pertains to the Eighth Amendment to the United States Constitution.[16] And while the U.S. Supreme Court has interpreted cruel and unusual punishment to include those that fail to take into account the defendant’s degree of criminal culpability, it has not determined that executing the mentally retarded constitutes cruel and unusual punishment.
This issue was addressed in the case of Penry v. Lynaugh, in which Johnny Paul Penry had filed a habeas corpus petition in federal district court that claimed his death sentence should be vacated because it violated his Eighth Amendment rights. His reasoning was that he suffered from mental retardation, and numerous psychologists had confirmed this to be factual, indicating that his IQ ranged from 50 to 63 and that he possessed the mental abilities of a six and a half-year-old.[16] Penry’s petition was denied by the district court, whose decision was subsequently affirmed by the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals. Penry would later appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court, who ultimately ruled in a five-to-four decision that the Eighth Amendment to the United States Constitution did not categorically prohibit the execution of persons with mental retardation. Following the 1989 Penry ruling, sixteen states as well as the federal government passed legislation that banned the execution of offenders with mental retardation.[16]
Penry was overruled by Atkins v. Virginia."

"A number of people are claimed to have been innocent victims of the death penalty.[2][3] Newly-available DNA evidence has allowed the exoneration and release of more than 15 death row inmates since 1992 in the United States,[4] but DNA evidence is available in only a fraction of capital cases. Others have been released on the basis of weak cases against them, sometimes involving prosecutorial misconduct; resulting in acquittal at retrial, charges dropped, or innocence-based pardons. The Death Penalty Information Center (U.S.) has published a list of 8 inmates "executed but possibly innocent".[5] At least 39 executions are claimed to have been carried out in the U.S. in the face of evidence of innocence or serious doubt about guilt.[6]"


http://acanderson24.hubpages.com/hub/The-Death-Penalty-Wrongfully-Executed

"Since 1973, over 130 people have been released from death rows throughout the country due to evidence of their wrongful convictions. In 2003 alone, 10 wrongfully convicted defendants were released from death row."
http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/death-penalty/us-death-penalty-facts/death-penalty-and-innocence

http://www.amnestyusa.org/pdfs/DeathPenaltyFactsMay2012.pdf

(http://www.amnestyusa.org/sites/default/files/images/SciConsensusDeterrence.jpg)

I went and found some facts. I feel like this case shows just how poorly mental health is understood. Again, I don't know what the solution is but lethal injection doesn't seem like the correct one.

"Since 1973, over 130 people have been released from death rows throughout the country due to evidence of their wrongful convictions. In 2003 alone, 10 wrongfully convicted defendants were released from death row"

I don't see what this has to do with our man walking into a cinema and gunning down all and sundry.  Do you think he may be innocent?

The issue isn't necessarily with this case.  But if you have a system in place that means errors result in the taking of an innocent life, then it's not a good system.  There were people calling for the reintroduction of the death penalty when the Birmingham Six and Guildford Four were sentenced for life - only for their convictions to be quashed years down the line as they were indeed innocent.  Yes, they lost years of their life that they had to spend in prison, but at least they hadn't been killed.

If it's not a deterrent, and it's not a foolproof system (so that innocent people can and are convicted), there are really only two arguments in favour of the death penalty - the economic one and revenge.

Birmingham Six and Guildford Four???? What about the Renault 5?

pant evidence <3


Wondered what that weird shaped bulge was.

:D

...and the Kingswinford One.

Whether it is a deterrent or not doesn't matter, the question is whether the death penalty is a suitable punishment for cold blooded murder or not... which it is.

Thought this thread was going to be about the bind/torture/kill guy as channel 5 recently replayed a documentary about it that I watched. Absolutely mind blowing stuff. Hearing him speak in court is utterly unnerving.

linky if you want to be disturbed.

http://www.channel5.com/shows/born-to-kill

Can't find quotes/evidence as I am at work (Not Googling Death penalty here) but I am sure in the recent Trevor McDonald death row doc he stated that teh Death Penalty cost $2 Million per person but Life time in prison was circa $500k?

That's interesting Nakor, I'm suprised at that.

From Amnety International

"A 2003 legislative audit in Kansas found that the estimated cost of a death penalty case was 70% more than the cost of a comparable non-death penalty case. Death penalty case costs were counted through to execution (median cost $1.26 million). Non-death penalty case costs were counted through to the end of incarceration (median cost $740,000)."

http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/death-penalty/us-death-penalty-facts/death-penalty-cost

"Thought this thread was going to be about the bind/torture/kill guy as channel 5 recently replayed a documentary about it that I watched."

One of my friend's dads looks exactly like Dennis Raider.  It's irrational but I always keep a close eye on him and never let him walk behind me.

Nakor (and Graham), that's interesting.  Would be cheaper to just send Milli round and do away with the trial, sentencing, appeal, incarceration, etc.

"was 70% more than the cost of a comparable non-death penalty case"

This all depends on the appeal process.  If it is a quick show trial than out back to the hanging tree then I daresay we can trim a few pounds off the cost of the process.

Exactly, I would do for 3/4 milli ball. #bargain.

NBC backs up Silo and Nakor, has some nice breakdowns of costs: http://www.kndo.com/story/15519792/what-costs-more-the-death-penalty-or-life-in-prison (http://www.kndo.com/story/15519792/what-costs-more-the-death-penalty-or-life-in-prison)

it's like watching a how to version of a criminal minds episode. facking crazy.

Executing one guy cost $48,000 in OVERTIME?  How much does the bloke with the hood earn?

$6k in travel?  $16k is "goods and services"?

Figures like that make me think that this analysis is somewhat ridiculous.

I don't think they just call a black cab and chuck the driver £20 to take the accused/prisoner to and from court (or anyone else making the journey as part of the process).

Phillpott, his wife and his mate were just found guilty of manslaughter of the six kids in that house fire.  Six kids dead and tax payers will be paying for three people's rent, food, health and utilities for however long the court sees fit when they're sentenced tomorrow.  I dunno...

Yeah the other factors obviously have a lot to do with it. Levels of punishment have to differ depending on where you are. You wouldn't have the death penalty in a nursery for example. You also wouldn't make a neo nazi lifer stand in the naughty corner.

I'm pretty sure that if you introduced the death penalty to all of those states that don't currently have it the rates wouldn't suddenly go up.

Likewise if you removed it from all of the others it wouldn't go down.

Chances are it has no affect whatsoever, I just like the thought that if you maliciously kill someone you're on a one way ticket to meet with Mr Mayhem.

Trial/Court costs:  $400k
Appeal:  $200k
1 year on death row:  $43k
Overtime:  $0k
Wages:  $1,000
Drugs:  $500
Travel:  $50

Total estimated death penalty costs

Court:  $600k
Prison:  $43k
Execution:  $1.55k

Total  645k

Seems more reasonable to me.

How is it manslaughter?  Were they trying for an insurance fraud and messed it up?  (haven't been following it too closely)

Matt, Mr Mayhem doesn't live in your pants as well, does he?

You couldn't even stick him in a cab to get to and from prison to court, etc., in your budgeted costs :D

:D

The claim is - He wanted to frame his mistress for torching their house to win a custody battle.  He used lots of petrol and it quickly got hotter than he'd expected, so kids never got out.

Horrific :(

What's the point of those 3 morons being allowed to live on?


the world frustrates me.

.
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es9XrKTTc_4

I don't think this should be discussed in financial terms; it's a moral issue. Personally, I don't feel it's right to make a calculated decision to end someone's life if the threat to society can be removed. Too many advocates of Capital Punishment use the term 'imagine if it were your kid, etc, etc'. Think this topic requires a rational approach, not one fuelled by emotion.

Are love, compassion, empathy etc not emotions?

Do they not form part of the rationale, which ever side your on?

I'm fence sitting atm btw, but I'm leaning toward Hislop.

You can get specialist shoes to sort that out.

A) It costs more
B) Mistakes have been made

But in some cases you could probably make a strongish argument for it, at least in the case Keith mentioned. However, am I the only one who finds executions that are viewed absolutely abhorrent. It does scare me that people want to watch executions.

Beaneh unfortunately the world is not cut and dried. I am sure the convicted will suffer more knowing what they have done and having to live with it rather than being executed.

Wow, read more about the case. Horrific.

"However, am I the only one who finds executions that are viewed absolutely abhorrent. It does scare me that people want to watch executions. "

The point of an execution (in my mind) should be to repair the morale of society.  Thus I think the execution itself should be freely available for public consumption.

pardon? We're hundreds of years away from that barbarism in the UK.

The argument for captial punishment falls down, and will always do so, because of miscarriages of justice of which there have been many in the past and no doubt will be again

Have no problem with death sentence in some cases where there is clearly no doubt they did it and admitted it etc. Anders Brevik or whatever his name is springs to mind as an example.

How does a system ensure that there's 'no doubt'? 

Difficult one, but for sure there are some cases where the person was caught red handed admitted it etc and there really is no doubt. The above example is one and there are others.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/themes/crime_and_punishment/miscarriages_of_justice/default.stm

A lot of those 'admitted' their guilt.

They are fking stupid then lol

far too simplistic. Mental problems, police coercion, defending others involved......lots of reasons why confessions can be unsafe

There are still deffo cases where there really is no doubt, I have given one example.

"pardon? We're hundreds of years away from that barbarism in the UK."

I don't expect many people to agree with me Tighty, but I think capital punishment is a healing process, where society bonds together under the umbrella of vengeance.  Two wrongs do make a right in my book, and society will benefit from seeing ultimate justice served.  Mercy and forgiveness are, in my book, flawed human traits.

I accept that miscarriages of justice is a problem, but in the cases of Brevik or this shooter the guilt is absolute (and I don't accept insanity as a defence.) 

As mentioned earlier in the thread I fully expect to be thought of as a caveman in this regard.

How would you create a system that only sentenced people to death if there is absolutely no doubt?

Would the jury and judge in the Birmingham Six or Guildford Four cases not have come to the same conclusion if the penalty facing the accused was the death penalty? 

We recently had a thread on here about the flaws in the jury system.  These flaws are magnified when an innocent person has his life taken away.

Tell them to only torch people if there is no doubt obv  :D

I'd happily leave that one for the lawmakers to define.

There is always doubt.  If you're not actually there to witness a crime in the first person, then you have to trust eye-witnesses, physical evidence, incomplete circumstantial evidence, etc.  Some of those cases I mentioned above had police witness statements, physical evidence, 'expert' testimony, and actual confessions by the accused.  That should propel those cases to a level above 'beyond reasonable doubt' to 'hardly any room for doubt at all' - but they were wrong, and innocent people were convicted.
 

Where is the doubt in the Anders Brevik case then? Sorry Dan but there are some cases where there is simply no doubt.

The problem we have is that murder is already "beyond reasonable doubt", so there can't be another category above that for "no doubt whatsoever" as it devalues the murder conviction.

It is up to the CPS to be responsible in seeking the death penalty (hypothetically) and unfortunately we have to live with the occasional miscarriage of justice on the basis that it is for the greater good.

No we don't.  That's the sole reason that any argument for the death-penalty is flawed.  The justice system killing one innocent person is too many.

I'd say it's 99.9999% certain that he's guilty. But I can only go on what I've read in the media and seen on TV.  As mentioned, I'd have said that the Birmingham Six were guilty beyond any doubt as well based on what I'd read and saw about the trial.

You're right, I guess there is a 0.0001% chance he has an identical twin brother nobody knows about that he's covering up for.  :P

Could be :)

That's your opinion. If the death of one innocent is outweighed by the benfitis then it is acceptable in my opinion.

The underpinnings of our whole justice system are based on the protection of the innocent. 

It's a much better system than the Wild West. IMO of course.

(http://www.assopoker.com/images/stories/poker_news/2011/05/kill-everyone-2.jpg)

/Thread

Dear Simon Cowell

Please read the attached link as background to my idea for your next Saturday night TV project, the be called The X-ecution Factor.

My fee is a reasonable 25% of commercial revenues.

Thanks   AndrewT

I would series link that fo sho!

And for the series winner................... it's Barrabas time. 

Plenty and I mean plenty of "certain guilty" cases in UK in the past 40 years have turned out to be sham convictions.

.
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjx2pclJQew

Milli - we've already established that you're the forum psychopath/sociopath :D

So it's OK to sentence all the others where (By your logic) there is doubt, to life in prison?

Remember the chilling words of Ned Flanders.

I'm a mur-diddley-urderer!


(http://deadhomersociety.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/bartofdarkness10_thumb.png?w=512&h=384)

I would prefer that life really meant life.

Fair enough, but what about my question?

Because I know where your leading with your question. Your gonna say the same thing Boshi did with the 99.99999% thing, we all know there are cases that there is no doubt, the Anders Brevik one is the obvious one alluded to.

I agree with you (that doesn't happen too often :D) that in many cases, a life sentence should be 'life' - especially in cases where rehabilitation isn't possible and the crimes are of a severity that deems such a punishment.

Here comes the hotstepper, murderer
I'm the lyrical gangster, murderer
Big up the crew in-a de area, murderer
Still love you like that, murderer
Boshi, thinks I should get let off, murderer
Still love you like that, murderer

I still like the concept of village stocks. Every day the lifers are placed in village stocks around the country. People can pay a pound for a rotten tomato, a fiver for watermelon and twenty quid for a swing of a cricket bat. All the money goes to cherity of course.

If you kill someone in the stocks with the cricket bat, do you then have to get in them yourself?