blonde poker forum

Because clearly Internet poker is bullsh1t and people have had enough of playing against robots. How Can you prove to us your site isn't rigged? My theory is half them players that win seats don't even exist and are robots.  It's a perfect way to stop any huge overlays on gte's. can you prove otherwise? Has the software been tested by any sort of auditor? Do you have a certification of a random number generator? I think it's all rigged, one day it will be proved and players will be able to claim all their money back.

Probably true, especially as robots won't demand free tap water from the valets. :)

 "1 H2O 4 C3PO"

Those who won seats last night were clearly listed in the Lobby.

There will be a stack for every single one of them in the Live Event.

:respect:

Just seen the winners and I think Sausage is right:

1. 01010111101
2. Metal_Mickey
3. OMG_JohnnyFive
4. I<3washers
5. DoesNotCompute
6. Error404
7. YisntWD40free
8. Fritz
9. DeepBlue
10. Rastafish (obv)

would you like the password for the blondepoker ISPT freeroll tonight?

haha i used to think dam robots!! no i consider its more like 'donks' not robots my friend. if you want to enjoy poker, really enjoy it then play lve and avoid online where possible. it'll scare off any strange ideas you have about online poker being fixed because my friend it is not.

on the WATER issue, i agree with adam although...sometimes reading through your threads i can see how readers might take it as attacking the club, thats always the problem with writting insted of face to face discussions, i too may come across like that but many times i have praised the club and the work rob does.
and someone saying 'just buy water' again thats just the easy thing to say,come on!! lol of course i can reach into my pocket and buy water.
i agree with what someone said
IDEA
if we could have 3-4 small tables set up with plastic cups and jugs of water maybe that would ease the pain abit, i duno maybe its just one of those things :) .

i found out a few weeks ago about not being able to get water from the valet. i was suprised but think its maybe one thing we have to accept :)

on another note

WOW fantastic number of runners in both sats for monte!!! well done dtd

It can't not be IMO. I've played 1000's of hands live.  The consistency of the cooler hands you see online isn't in the realm of possibility.  It gives two players huge hands so all the money is in the middle this pushing one of the players to make a rebuy or making the pot bigger so the rake is bigger. Show me proof that I'm wrong?

can we take this to a different thread, please?

I am sure lots of people will discuss "Online is rigged" with you to your hearts content, but this thread is to promote the event.

thanks

But the event it's promoting is rigged IMO and I was just asking for some sort of evidence to prove me wrong.

lol :D

silly sausage

Yawn. Containment thread. Somewhere hidden.

When I'm playing two tables, the flop I want on table one always comes on table two.

Can't be a coincidence.

That's better - now we can debate it.

It is not possible to prove it is NOT rigged, negatives can rarely be proven.

It should be EASY to prove a positive.

So if you think Online poker is rigged, just present the credible proof. Anecdotal reasons prove nothing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

You would say that ::)

We've all seen that thread of yours where you "post" all those "hands" you've "played"

Changed your mind on this then?

btw

About iPoker
A sophisticated Random Number Generator (RNG) ensures a random outcome for all our automated online games, checked by GLI, an internationally recognized and respected Accredited Testing Facility.
State of the art collusion prevention and detection tools ensure a secure and fair gaming experience, while a vast portfolio of tournaments and games enable players of all skill levels to find the table or tournament they are looking for.

Who are GLI??
http://www.gaminglabs.com/default.asp?contentID=3

Plus of course the Alderney Gambling Control Commission has controls and responsibilities which include...

Assessing the fairness, security and auditability of the gambling systems used in making gambling available;

http://www.gamblingcontrol.org/index.php


Stick to live though where Aces never lose when all in pre versus Queens and the river never delivers a fatal blow to the shortstack

Don't "listen" to him pleno, "we" will get "them".

DTD need to make the free water compulsory at the club in order to stop the robots.

Any player who says 'No thanks, but I'll take a glass of Castrol GTX' would be viewed with suspicion.

Brilliant!

Only Tal should be allowed to post on blonde

Haha +1

and if I fold Q2os utg the flop comes Q22 which it is just goading me to make sure I play atc

and when i ask a valet the missus for a tap water, she tells me to fuck off and get one from the bar kitchen in the break or she just tells me to stop being a nit and order a real drink. #rigged

I am sorry, Sausage. It is easy to ridicule (it is also fun).

The fact if the matter is The House doesn't need to rig the deck, because it making a steady profit through reg fees. It doesn't mean they're all clean, tho, and the ultimate bet scandal serves as a reminder to us all that greedy people exist.

When you hand your money over to a computer, to a cashier or to a TD, you are doing so on the basis of trust. Until recently, this was an unenforceable gentleman's agreement and nothing more. You are entirely reliant on the House acting in good faith, not fixing tthe deck, not having loaded dice, not making some of the numbers on the wheel bigger/smaller.

If you can't trust them, you're doing the right thing by not giving them money. Plenty of people do trust DTD and ipoker but that's fine.

The stock "online poker is rigged" stuff is a cliché, even though we all know that in some cases (the minority, I hasten to add) it has been.

hmm..
In relation to the water issue all I do is ask who wants water on the table. Whoever agrees, I just say lets do a run each and grab a load on a tray. I am normally busted first, so agree to do the first run on the break.  ;ashamed;
Great way to interact with those who normally just sit there quiet. Or if it is just one other, play rock, paper, scissors to see who does the run.

Rigged or not my exit hand in last nights mega sat was like a moonie being pulled with a big ha ha

Me  Ks Kh
Next player  Ad Ahrt
Luck box jammy bugger   Jd Jc

Quad jacks wins...lol

To be fair there can no proof any online game is or is not rigged- any game designed by human has the opportunity to have 'cheats' built in just like fruit machines in the 80's.
as you play hundreds times more hands online you probably get an unbalanced view compared to live.

Swings and roundabouts comes to mind - everyone remembers the bad beats but easily forgets the times they have dished it out

Can you move this one to the bad beat containment thread?

 Cheers

I think those shuffle machines are rigged too, I call shenanigans.

Them dealers tho, they gots a dodgy look in their eyes.

winnnnnnnnnnnnnnns

I'll grab my broom!

Is there anyway to automatically move these ridiculous threads over to 2+2?

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28/internet-poker/great-poker-rigged-debate-collected-threads-edition-255990/

No, that would be containing them, somewhere hidden and that would never do.

hahahahahahaha laughing out loud to myself been a while since that last happened. ur soo right if ur playing two tables the flops always on the other table that you want.
so funny

I enjoy these threads/dsicussions immensely!  ;popcorn; ;grr; ;technolog;

Still makes me chuckle

http://www.billrini.com/2004/11/30/proof-that-online-poker-is-rigged/

oh and this page analyses your HH and gives a definitive answer to the question of whether it was rigged

http://www.billrini.com/rt-hand-analyzer-rigged-games/

 ;popcorn;

I always think threads like this are a level, and then realise there really are people out there who actually think this; so funny...it's all rigged

You do see some pretty crazy stuff at times. But that is poker. One thing that seems to happen a lot to me is I leave the game for a cuppa/p come back just as my aa/kk is timed out. Then watch as someone shoves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_heuristic

you're welcome :)

You need to drink "tap water" its much quicker to get and you'll get back in time to get your Aces cracked. :)

so when I watch the run out with AK vs AQ and it's A J K 9 and I think, just need to avoid the 10.......

Literally minutes after posting that I get this...

50p to Emanuel House when I next get there btw

GAME #4733072645: Holdem NL - 2013-04-15 16:02:18
Tournament  (804034649)
Table Dusk Monte £5 Feeder
Server poker33.ipoker.com
 
Seat 1: resdes75 (52,375.00 in chips)
Seat 3: jordan21110 (16,801.00 in chips)
Seat 4: RicRooster2013 (12,511.00 in chips)
Seat 5: bookiecrasher (121,625.00 in chips)
Seat 6: limpit69 (33,199.00 in chips)
Seat 8: No1pokerpops (18,150.00 in chips)
Seat 9: earl1069 (83,300.00 in chips)
Seat 10: wotevaminga (75,039.00 in chips)
 
resdes75: Ante 500.00
jordan21110: Ante 500.00
RicRooster2013: Ante 500.00
bookiecrasher: Ante 500.00
limpit69: Ante 500.00
No1pokerpops: Ante 500.00
earl1069: Ante 500.00
wotevaminga: Ante 500.00
resdes75: SB 2,000.00
jordan21110: BB 4,000.00
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to No1pokerpops [SA SK]
RicRooster2013: Fold 
bookiecrasher: Fold 
limpit69: Raise To 32,699.00
No1pokerpops: Allin 17,650.00
earl1069: Fold 
wotevaminga: Fold 
resdes75: Fold 
jordan21110: Fold 
*** FLOP *** [H9 C9 C6]
*** TURN *** [H9 C9 C6 H5]

at which point I think..... "a seven's not good...."


*** RIVER *** [H9 C9 C6 H5 C7]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
limpit69: shows [H8 HA] (Straight)
No1pokerpops: shows [SA SK] (Pair)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 60,349.00
limpit69: wins 60,349.00

haha david, thats such a 'im guna get there flop' nasty u can see it coming.
wd getting token ealier btw hopefully see u at the monte.

i remember playing against you after you was knocked out of a final table (end of last year i think, golden chip?)and you came up to the 25quid comp and played that, do you remember? and you had a mountain of chips and was saying 'bet you guys hate me coming up here stacking all the chips lol), it was ok though i got them all wen i flopped the flush on you and another guy with 4-5 of spades. it was back end of last year. think u both had like a-k,a-q something like that :)) i can remember names and faces well :)

(http://www.anglersmail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Peperami.gif)

Great for Chub and Barbel

It's carping that goes on more here though

i dont belive that on line  poker is rigged ,however i prefer live poker every time as you can use a whole load of sences that you dont have sat at a lap top....
the way the other players act,whos looking fed up ,whos bored ,drunk, wacawacawaca...playing on line is a bit like doing mans favourite pass time onley wearing a glove to do it....it just dousnt feel the same,and there is a lack of sensory stimalation to loads of areas that usualey would be haveing all there jollies....there fore when it goese pear shapped and youre out ,it must be rigged.......
simple answer practise playing with out a glove...

so rigged AINEC!

It is actually very encouraging that people like this exist, if we only let people who have the ability to rationalise properly that online poker is not rigged the games would be so much harder.

I mean it is depressing thought that people are like this but I gave up on the general public a long time ago.

IMO people always massively overreact to these type of threads.

I'm sure we could all delve into some new subject and have ideas that would be completely idiotic to the "experts" in that field. A ton of experienced players are pretty lolworthy results orientated so its not that crazy that new players that play online are like most people in poker and forget all the times when they get lucky and just remember when they run bad so after a while it begins to seem like its rigged, plus it's just a good excuse to make to yourself for why you don't win.

Much love for a lot of the people itt that have been negative but these sort of threads come pretty close to belittling these new players.

Lol, mondaclown makes a living from online poker, then tries to convince us it's not rigged? Righto.

Mondobot

Haha, you at DTD this wkend fish ?

defo rigged.

the other day i got it in with 6789 vs AA78dd in A69dd for nearly 200big blinds and ran out 99 so i hope they dont stop rigging it :D

(http://www.tickld.com/images/content/74064.jpg)

And punters throwing chunks to bag a seat............ dont play if you think its rigged, simple really

I'd won from the free £5 token so it didn't throw a big chunk at all. I thought the free £5 token was a clever idea too as people are tempted to rebuy putting more money in the pot.  'Everyone' knows the cards you get live and online are completely different. My theory is premium hands are given far more often so the more rebuys are made and there is less chance of an overlay.  You're right it's my choice and I don't have trust so I won't be putting anymore money into online sats. I like that you've taken time to defend and you can hardly ridicule someone on an 'Internet forum' with a username like sausage :) xx

Fair play sausage. Whilst you're undoubtedly wrong, you've demonstrated a particularly thick skin and held yourself together well under the heat you've faced.

Must be a level.

WP sir

More rusk and MSM than decent outdoor bred organic Old Spot I'd suggest

It's all rigged!  ;reallyamsorry;

Knew my avatar would come in handy!

(http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/LeBron-James-Smallest-Violin-Gif.gif)

confirmed rigged

dtdsimon finished chip leader in the online Monte carlo Day1



knew it, well done "not so silly" sausage, are you arb boy in disguise?

 rotflmfao

I agree.

The Poker Action Flop Theory in Online NL Texas Holdem Tournaments

 Poker Action Flop Theory: Hands are deliberately set up by an online Poker room to handicap the best players and benefit the bad players.

 Texas Holdem tournaments on the internet attract literally thousands of players everyday to sites that offer every kind of tournament you can imagine. Freerolls with small, and sometimes very high, cash prizes, buyins from 10 cents to $1000.00, satellites to major land based tournaments, bounty tournaments, freeze outs, you name it, and you can find it. And everyone who plays online has some incredible bad beat stories - one out hands hitting on the river, etc, seemingly in much greater mathematical probability than seems possible.

 This is where the "Action Flop" Theory comes in. Paul Phillips is credited with coining the phrase on the World Poker Tour. It defines an almost improbable hand result, where some great starting hands are played aggressively by skilled players that hit a flop nicely, but end up losing on the river to a vastly inferior hand. The classic bad beat suckout.

 I have statistically tracked a number of sites as I play them. And on certain sites (to remain nameless, but catch me in a game sometime, and I might spill the beans) there is most definitely a higher proportion of Action Flops near the bubbles. But first, lets make a note here. Cards dealt on the online casinos are NOT randomly dealt. A true random deal is mathematically impossible. They can get close, but never truly statistically random. I am not saying any sites are rigged, but do please read on. It has already been established that some sites use different shuffles for free games and for cash games. These sites lead the free player to believe they are better than they are, hoping to encourage them to deposit and play for cash.

 The theory behind action flops is quite simple. The Poker Action Flop is a flop that will encourage the good players to get very aggressive in a pot and then the new or bad player makes an unlikely river draw to suck out on the good player.

 And this happens! A lot! In fact, a lot more than it should, statistically.

 So why do all these bad beats happen? This is what the Poker Action Flop Theory explains.

 The Poker Action Flop Theory is simply this: the online poker room wants the bad players to beat the good players. Not all the time, just at certain points in a tournament. Skilled experienced players know that bad beats happen, and they can accept them as part of the game. If they are winning overall in the site, they stay and just pick another tournament to enter. But a new player or a bad player who doesn't win once in a while will stop playing there. Thus no more poker room deposit money from them. The online casinos want to spread the winning cash prizes around, so they create action flops to do this, according to the Action Flop Theory. They deliver great hands to the good players who then boost the pot, and the bad player sucks out on the river.

 Skilled and experienced winning Texas Holdem players tend to be very aggressive. They make value bets, forced calls against pot odds, high percentage semi bluffs, outright steals, and they slow play the fish right into the net. Skilled players know how to make the most out of every hand they play. Bad players are basically calling stations and have little knowledge of proper betting techniques. So if an Action Flop comes along, the skilled player has a lot of chips in the pot, and loses them to the bad player suckout.

 In the real world of Texas Holdem tournament play, new and bad players are easily beaten by superior players. Most of them don't stand a chance to win in a live multi table no limit holdem tournament. They are dead money. In land based casino poker room NL Texas Holdem tournaments, the skilled players get most of their chips from the bad players as they knock them out.

 So why is it different online? Action Flops!

 The Theory says that "ACTION FLOPS", those flops that bring big action to a hand and hurt the skilled players who are beaten by the river miracles. Online poker room owners know that in the general course of play, the highly skilled players would decimate the rest of the players. They need something to level the playing field or risk losing the majority of their players, and then the majority of their income. The Action Flop theory says this is the way they do it, by having Action Flops during the course of play. The better skilled players are penalized by chip loses and the new or unskilled players are rewarded with chip gains, and thus are retained as customers.

 The Action Flop Theory states that Action Flops are the mainstay of the online poker room business model.

 Action Flops let the winning players win far less than they would normally would.

 Action Flops let bad players play longer and even win money on occasion.

 Action Flops benefit bad players who continue calling on a draw against the aggressive skilled player.

 Action flops keep the new or bad players on the site, and the poker room makes more money.

 See below for an example of how the online poker rooms could use their Dynamic Dealing to Generate a Poker Action Flop without compromising in any way the integrity of their RNG card shuffle.

 How can you avoid falling into the Poker Action Flop Trap?

 Point Point Count System

 Action flops will occur anytime in NL Texas Holdem tournament. Generally speaking, the first few rounds are free of Action Flops, since this is the most dangerous time for the player, and the time you usually see the most all in players. No need for them here, actually.

 As the game progresses, there usually will come a group of Action Flops. Watch for this as you play, and be very careful if you see the start of pattern of Action Flops. As a skilled player, you probably have an idea of who are the other skilled players at your table, and who are the new or unskilled players. If you see the later start to suckout, watch out!

 And, as I mentioned earlier, as you near the bubble, expect these action flops! They may are there and they may come! Remember, the poker room wants the new players and the bad players who have survived so far to make the money bubble. And if you are a skilled player, they may not want you to make the bubble!

 Your best tool is observation! Be very careful when on the button near the bubble. This is where the classic Poker Action Flop is set to give you that great hand to steal the blinds with, but may in fact be the hand that takes you out when the Big Blind sucks out in a Poker Action Flop!
 Learn more about Texas Holdem Poker Action Flops and how to spot them plus some untold poker secrets in the ebook:
 Texas Holdem Dynamic Point Count Super Strategy!

 Example: We have two players in a hand, a skilled player who has won a lot of money on the site, aggressively betting his AK hand, and a newbie player, with no winnings at all on the site, holding AJ. The flop is A J, 3, turn is K. The skilled player goes all in on his AA KK, the top two pair. The newbie calls with his AA JJ. On the river the random card generator puts out a King to be dealt, which would give the skilled player a winning full house. The dynamic dealing program then would set aside the Ace, not deal it, and then the program continues to set aside the randomly generated cards until a Jack appears, then deals it as the river card. The the less skilled newbie player then outdraws the skilled player to win on the river.

 Even an audit of the random number generator will still validate the RNG because it is not compromised, it is the deal/distribution that is compromised.

 Some players claim they have detected a slight delay in river dealing by the site software when these outdraws occur.

lol

If online poker is rigged in favour of bad players.... why havent I won more?

(http://lolsnaps.com/upload_pic/MyTeachersFaceWhenCorrectingMyPaper-11431.jpg)

I hesitate to ask, but could you supply the source for that please shmeigle?

I'm hoping to find a paragraph you missed at the end where the author points out that it's nonsense, or a date line of 01/04

I can vouch for the bit about the delay before the river card is dealt.
its happened to me loads.



as for the article source I got it off a facebook group called poker doctor

The original source is http://www.thedoverpro.com/poker-action-flop.htm  and the author is trying to sell you a book.

Out of curiosity, why were people so happy that DTD went from boss to ipoker?

because boss was so awfully gash

ipoker has it's many faults but it's all relative.

You don't need to vouch for it, it is a fact, there IS, on most Sites, a delay before the river card is dealt.

It is often called the "drama delay", & it's purpose is obvious - to give players that bit of added buzz. Exactly as you see in televised B & M poker shows, whren the TD delays the turn & river deliberately for viewer or player "ooooh" effect.

I was once told, by someone who believed that Online Poker software lacks integrity, that the delay was to enable the software to find the right card.

If the software needed to "find a card" it would not involve even a millisecond of delay. Software does not work like that.

Live pub poker and home games are rigged IMO

but why was it gash? I was glad when it moved to ipoker cause I thought boss was more rigged. But most of you don't think online is rigged so why was you all happy with the move?

lol, One of the dumbest things ever written down.

Do you need a list?

Just on the superficial level there was the need to move the dropdown boxes that, even when not expanded obscured the cards for the player in seat one.
The need to re click auto add-on every time you got a table move.
The adding of late-regged players with rubbish table balancing

Pretty sure the online pros can add plenty to the list

Online poker is not rigged, it makes no sense for it to be rigged.  The 'casinos' win no matter what happens to individual players.

The reason people were happy with the move was that the software is superior on Ipoker and that as a bigger network with more players, DTD would be able to grow and develop its online room and in conjunction with that further develop its live offerings too.

Sausage getting grilled almost flame grilled itt :)

Huge companies are greedy, bigger cards = bigger pots = bigger rake. The quicker a tourney is over the quicker another one starts taking reg fees. If I was to play two blank skins I think I could tell you which one had ipoker behind it and which one was boss. Different sites have different feeling with their cards which makes me question theses random number generators.

*puts on hard hat* lol

Ha! Very wise, Mr Sausage, the ice upon which you are skating is thinner than LolDave.

It's great that we don't all see things the same way though.

As a curiosity, if you think the Online game is bent, why on earth would you partake?

I've encountered several B & M rooms where they were skimming the rebuys & suchlike, & I just don't play there again.

On a scale of 1/10, how would you estimate the degree of riggedness for each site?

This isn't actually true sausage, rake in cash games online is capped very low, so to achieve the maximum rake doesn't require the pot to be very big at all, this works online because there are so many tables, and doesn't work live because there isn't.

Scheduled tournaments don't start directly after the one before stops, maybe thiss is SLIGHTLY the case in SnG's but really you think they are rigging sit and go's to get say 15% extra volume over the course of the year? That will actually be quite a lot of money (prolly in the 8figure$ regoin for pokerstars) but they'd lose Billions if they got caught trying to rig SNG's to make an extra $25m a year. Doesn't really add up.

I agree with you, there are loads of reasons WHY sites would want to rig, but there's loads of reasons why I'd wanna rob a bank, or sell drugs, doesn't mean i'd actually do it.

Kind of a pointless argument though, because you're convinced it is rigged, I've played 750,000 hands on online poker and am convinced that it isn't - there is nothing I can really say to you to convince you otherwise and vica versa.

Lets not forget in the interests of balance there has been a very famous ccase of "rigging" online poker (show's sausage has some merit to his points), but in truth if the sites are up to shady practices (which, given what we've just seen with FTP isn't entirely beyond the realms of possibility) then it's way more likely to be mis-use of player funds, or props/bots in ring games then rigging the actuall games, when the outcomes of them have very little relevance to the companies commercially.

Sigh, can't believe I bit.

It's in an online rooms interest to not have action flops. If the so called bad player wins a big action pot and felts the other player, they can take their money and withdraw and that's the end of that. The best scenario for an online room is for an endless line of the players missing the flop and checking it down in small pots without much of a hand. That way all the players stay in the game longer and generate more rake. Shear a sheep forever but slaughter it only once and all that.

Action flops! I knew it

#rigged

PokerStars have submitted 95 billion seperate pieces of evidence, & not one poker player has ever proven a single one of them was improper in any way. You'd think with that much evidence, someone would have proven any wrongdoing by now, surely? That is a lot of evidence, all there to be scrutinised by hundreds of thousands - millions? - of Clients, the vast majority of whom are net losers on that site, & so may feel aggrieved, if they think that way.

Remember, the onus in law is NOT to prove innocence, you have to prove the guilt. And nobody ever has, as to gameplay & RNG's.

With so many people having so many databases chock full of data.  Poker must be the game where the statistics are analysed more than any other on Earth.  It is so well analysed that people can spot the same bot playing under 10 different names just by its play.  Yet none of these people have noticed this massive and pernicious rigging going on across multiple sites.

The bloke who wrote this doesn't come up with a shred of evidence to back up the action flop theory.  If there was any, somebody would have published it by now.

wait are people actually reading this dross?


it's fiddy fiddy, it's rigged or it's not. everyone know's that.

Deffo started getting rigged about 3 or 4 years ago when I found it harder to win  ;whistle;

I've just lost $150 when i should have only lost $100. 

rigged.

I thought "sausage" might be a close relative of your after the conversation I had with him a few weeks back.

@sausage,
you are my fav blondite

much love

?

(http://www.dreamstime.com/little-wiener-sausages-forming-a-question-mark-thumb11371739.jpg)

YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMHu-J7XJ4I

 ;carlocitrone;

He seemed convinced about "enhanced flops on pokerstars" if that helps.

I can't win on there either but I still could not agree.

Boss 9.5/10 I poker 7.5/10 pokerstars 8/10 FTP 5/10

Seriously, if you we're playing a blank skin, would you have an idea of which software you'd be playing on?


There have been a few points that has made me think, thanks for taking the time out and put your point across, especially Tikay and SuuPRlim. Which site have you played 750,000 hands on if you don't mind me asking?
A few have asked why I play it if I think it's rigged and its cause, like many people on here,I get an enormous buzz out of playing poker and other commitments stop me travelling to and from the casino as much. I'd be very intrigued to see pokerstars RNG spit out 1 million cards and see what % of them would be aces.

I see.

So, if it was 100% rigged, all the cards would be aces?

Betfair (ongame) Ipoker, Party and FTP. Nowadays i play almost exclusively on iPoker, in fact it's likely more than 750k as I just looked at my database and have 620k iPoker cashgame hands.

One thing about online poker is its very clinical, you take a bad beat, chips move over and the next hand starts, live poker you get a nervous pause from the dealer, sympathetic looks from the other guys at the table and generally a minute longer to let the hand soak in, I think this makes a difference to how severe each nasty outdraw feels.

No worries Mr Sausage.

I have encountered a lot of people who think the same way as you do, in fact I encounter it daily, & I always try & explain my thinking logically.

I hope the explanation I gave of the pause before the river card has allayed at least some of your concerns. A lot of people were not aware of the reason for the delay, so some good has been served by the thread.

I've also attended a lot of "Blind Testing" sessions, where poker newbies are asked to think out loud (not being aware of my presence) as to their views on Online Poker, Downloads, Browsers, & Sites which "favour" players more than others.

The amount of people who felt that there was a rigged river card was extraordinary - these are the "Ladbrokes/Stars/FT/Party Rivers".

A significant number said that William Hill River Cards were rigged, and so they refused to play on Wm Hill & played on Paddy Power instead, as it was a "safer & more trustworthy site". A curious observation, all things considered, but this is what some people think.

Most said they thought that it was far tougher to win MTT's on William Hill than it is on Paddy Power. Another rather curious observation.

We all have different views. There are lots of things in life I don't believe in, & for which I regularly get some gentle mocking. We are all different, & just as well too.

Pretty sure level thread is a level but..


So you get a buzz out of being scammed out of your money on a between 5/10 and 9.5/10 scale?

Sounds like you have a problem you can't shake. GA can help. Ban yourself from all gambling websites and casino's.

Good luck in your recovery.

When you leave Tesco, a job in the diplomatic corps beckons ;)

This the same advice work gave you?

I take it you do it for living then SuuPRlim? ( how on earth did you come up with that name? lol ) do you know what I mean about each site having its own feeling with them card patterns? You think you could tell which site you was on if playing a blank skin? or am I experiencing one of them curious observations Tikay is on about lol nasty outdraws just seem to happen much more on the net even though you're playing many more hands.

What do you do Tikay? If you don't mind me asking. Many many times I've sat and shouted what card will come on the river in that little pause that gives the other guy the hand, so often its a small % card too.

I'm 50/50 about the whole thing now. You guys have put some very interesting points across and it's obvious you have much more brains than me. I've often thought they can't rig them for legal reasons and should be trusted. But whenever there is huge amounts of money somewhere the is nearly always some sort of corruption with it.  Who should we trust in this world? Police, politicians, priests? Should we fuck!

Last summer I was playing a mega sat and it had been a while since I'd won anything on boss. Half way through I was getting a little frustrated and typed in the chat box how shit the site was and I wasn't putting other penny on it. After that I couldn't seem to loose and won a seat which I found funny. I played a few more mega sats and a lot of feeders for the next 6 months and didnt win a thing. I remembered about how I ranted half way through a sat 6 months earlier and got all the cards to win a seat so thought I'd try the same thing again out of curiosity in a mega sat for the first £300 mega stack in jan. half way through went on my little rant in the chat box and a few hands later I got a pair of 3's utg so raised, someone 3 bet and I didn't fancy my chances so folded. The very next hand I got another pair of 3's so thought fuck it and shoved. I had 4 callers and when the cards went over they were all premium hands including a pair of aces. I started laughing, thought Ive got zero chance, throw the mouse down and went to the toilet. Came back down to find I'd hit a set on the river and quadrupled up putting me in the top 5 and and easy ride to a seat.

I've always found it odd that I won them two seats after a rant, maybe it was coincidence and I'm sure I'm going to receive a deluge of comments about trying that and blah blah blah from some of you on here lol but my point is, these companies seem to go to low levels and play all sorts of tricks trying to stop people withdrawing and leaving their sites. A friend told me how each time he has left, they've bloody rang him up trying to convince him to stay. On one occasion he said he was on the phone for 20 mins and in the end had to shout at the guy on the other end. If they earn so much money, why do they have to stoop low and how low are they prepared to stoop?

Out of curiosity I'm going to log every hand I'm dealt from now on and see what % premium hands I get live and online. Do some little charts and call it the Sausage statistic :)

Tight4better, the fact I used decimals and started the next sentence with 'seriously' should have told you not to take that line as what I really think, pal :)

I challenge you to sit there, open your wallet and go through each coin in your wallet recording if it lands heads or tails. Do it 50 times for each coin. At the end of this see how many times the split of Heads/Tails is 25:25. I bet nearly all the coins in that wallet of yours are 'rigged'. Some of them 5/10, some 9/10... but odds are none of them will be not rigged at all :)

"live video showing how Party Poker discriminates and disadvantages certain players based on their skill"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_At1H1fDnss

also this is just real funny!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW4UFz4H0R4

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0141026472/

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2274/2404325409_5543da1791.jpg)

I know at times it can seem like the deck/site is against you and trust me I fully feel you're pain and I'm surprised
that in all the time playing on line only one mouse has been broken by my heavy hands.

Now you seem like a good kid and I'm glad that you are getting indepth (if at times tongue in cheek) replies from some absolute Blonde heroes. May i suggest
you follow this link/purchase the book. http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=60881.0 (http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=60881.0).

Poker is an extremely difficult game as even the perfect play can end in your exit from any given comp. What we need to do
is to find a method for dealing with these emotional shocks. I mean do you for one minute believe that any other poster here
has not had there absolute fair share of bad beats and suckouts. In one way its the best thing that happens to us as aspiring poker players.
I can safely say playing poker has made me emotionally far tougher over the past few years and the beats have stirred me to work even harder,
searching for ways to improve, finding leaks in my game etc etc.

At the end of the day money is made in poker as a rule in the long run by constantly playing well and having a good ROI even when we seem to be
getting steamrolled by variance. So pick yourself up and keep making the right play. Its easy to blame outside factors when indeed it could be your own lack
of mastery that is perpetuating these problems. All the best bud.

Nah, it's rigged ldo.

Sausage please never have children

YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNkVS0Mn2XE

been a while since I viewed these and this thread reminded me. My favourite is the stars neighbours scam!

Now there is something that is definitely rigged.

Possibly the best question yet on this Forum.  Ahrt

With 1 on the scale been as honest as a Gary Lineker tackle and 10 been as rigged as a Zimbawean election.....

Yes, I do. In regards to the question of if I played on all the sites blankly would i be able to identify which site is which based on the pattern of the cards coming out, then I think I would absolutely not be able to do that, in all the many hands on online poker I've played I've never really noticed anything that you've mentioned so far.

I do prefer certain sites to others, but mostly down to the software and the playing style of the games, I even am susceptible to silly things like I truly believe I am luckier on Party than I am on betfair - I've even said to my flatmate before "I'd fold here on ipoker but I run too good on party" lol, obviously theoretically it's total nonsense but we're all human!

I cant even TELL you about the amount of horrible outdraws I've seen online, so so so many, but you know I'd honestly say that I've seen a higher ratio of terrible beats>hands played live than online - thing is if you don't get your money in dead then you ALWAYS have a chance don't you, if I get it in with 5% chance of winning then 1/20 times I'm gonna fuck you - when you play 125 hands p/hour p/table it's not actually that improbable for it to happen reasonably often is it? Thing is though these hands stick out in your head cos they really sting, the 19 times you previously won when you had 95% will fade into insignificance pretty quickly.

every single day I see people type "fkn rigged site never playing here again" into chat and they pretty much never get given miracles - most of the time they are tilting and end up dusting there money off - i've heard this argument time and time again, sites are rigging it so people don't lose too quick so they play more, but in reality people have been playing (and losing) at poker for years and years, and never really need encouraging to play, how does live poker manage to keep people playing if they can't rig the hands?

Also - suggesting that DTD are rigging satelites to prevent doing their money on overlays would require THE WHOLE ipoker network to be rigged, WH/PaddyPower/BB/B365/Encore/DTD all play off the same network, with the same players and same RNG, so DTD would need playtech (owners of the ipoker software) to allow them to rig it, so that DTD would save money on gte's - even someone as skeptical as you must see that that specifically is completely non-viable.

The point about sites being up to shady things, though, is totally true, a while back it came out that ipoker had put "bots" into cash games to start games, these bots would play a theoretically optimal style of poker and there purpose being to run more games, generate more rake and skim a little bit of money out of the games as well - this is obviously illegal and totallly OOL, cheating, if you were. UB had the "potripper" scandal where they created a few "super-user" accounts which could see everyone's whole cards - Phralard Friedman famously got scammed for $1m by one of these accounts heads up. There has also been countless accounts of hacking into peoples screens so they can see their hole-cards, the incident where someone broke into Brain Townsends house and installed a small webcam above his PC so could see his screen and took him for 750k HU, and ofc the team at FTP all played high stakes craps and bought malibu beach houses with out player monies for years. Shadiness/cheating 100% does and has gone on in internet poker, no-one can dispute this but in all the years and all the scams the one thing that has never happened is the actual cards that come out have been rigged. If it was worth doing, someone would have done it by now.

You're obviously entitled to your opinion Sausage but I really wouldn't waste your time on the Sausage statistic, because even if you came back with the most damning set of data, no-one would believe you lol :)up

As for my name, I used to live in Cyprus and have friends in lived/grew up in a tiny farming village in the south, they used to say the word "soop-rar-leem" which to them meant "supreme wealth" but not money, as in you had a good life and people who loved you, so you were, supremely wealthy.

However Greekstien, who is greek himself, despite looking jewish and living in thailand has told me often that such a word really doesn't exist, and isn't even a development of other similar words in greek or cypriot, so given that I was drunk, high and sunburnt for the majority of my time in cyprus there is every chance I mis-heard/remembered it wrong/made it up, but it's my blonde name and my stars username so I'm stuck with it, and given that i'm the only person I know who's been to that cypriot village you'll just have to believe me :D

I always seem to lose on Wednesdays. While I agree that online poker isn't generally rigged I think it probably is on Wednesdays.

sunday's for me. cheating pricks.

loved the bad beat video above. I wonder if the guy's still playing on Stars.

There was no bigger sceptic of online poker than me. 3 years ago I was convinced it was rigged.

So in November 2010 I waved goodbye to online poker and began playing live MTT's in the medium buy in range. £150 to £1k events.

I have now played over 200 including some £50 one nighters at my local G casino.

On line I saw bad beats over and over just like the video above. Relentless. But I have to admit that I have had my worst bad beats in live Mtt's and at critical times, deep, when the outcome had just as critical consequence as anything online. Actually more critical because the live tournaments had larger prize pools.

My point is that over the last couple of years I have been forced to re assess my opinions of online poker or at least the evidence upon which I was basing my supicions and distrust.

Is it Rigged? Maybe it is maybe it isn't. But playing live is the best way to give balance to your suspicions.

Those bad beats are there waiting for us in every real deck of cards on every table in every casino and card room. It's a cliche been said millions of times before, but its poker. If a particular outcome is possible it will happen at some stage.

I played on DTD poker site on the Boss software. I didn't like the software but I had no suspicions that this site was rigged. I won a couple of satellites and lost a few. Nothing untoward.

I cannot and never have been able to win on Stars. Like the poor sod in the video my big hands just never hold up on that site.

I would say that when people are suspicious about certain sites integrity I doubt they are being malicious or delusional. They are forming their opinions based on their experience and knowledge of the game (whatever level they are at) so it is not helpful to ridicule them.

Replies need to be constructive as indeed some are on here such as TK and SuuPRlim and others. That said responses here are far more constructive than 2plus2 where industry insiders are waiting to lambast anyone who dares to question the integrity of online poker.

Where there is money there is greed and dishonesty lurking in the shadows. That is true across all industries. That does not mean every company is dishonest but we would be naive to believe there is no dishonesty in online poker. The question is to what extent and how deep does it run. As SuuPRlim pointed out above there have been several cases of dishonesty already uncovered. The fact that nothing has been proven in relation to the deal does not guarantee that all sites and all online deals are honest.

But I do now know that, as frustrating and incredibly annoying as it is to get deep in an online MTT or satellite only to get your AA KK or dominating hand busted, it happens in live games as well only too often and when you are running bad it can be just as brutal live as it is online. One example. Las Vegas two years ago. Had AK 32  times lost 30 times (missed the board 31 times) Had that run been online it would have been tempting to suspect that I was been set up. But it was live.

I will be surprised if we do not see more cases of dishonesty come light to over the coming years. But I would be very surprised if they were to involve DTD in anyway. Rob seems to love the game too much to discredit it and he has shown by enduring huge overlays on some of his comps that he is not in it just to make money at any cost. If he were then he would not have honoured the overlays, he would be more aloof and would not care about what the players think. Anyone can see that is not the case.

One thing is for sure. As long as there is online Poker this debate will continue.

I think the reason you get a lot of joke replies on these threads is because it just seems like a massive level. It just doesn't seem believable that people can think like this. If people are actually on this level then the reason they get joke replys is probably because its good for the online grinder to have people playing on their site thinking like this and educating them can only be bad or them in the long term.

one thing I have always wondered about with online poker...all these programs that you can get that tells you information on your opponents which I believe works on all the large sites - if they only work by collecting information on the players ID why do no poker sites allow you to regularly change your username and therefore keeping a more level playing field for those without it.

Once again thanks for taking the time out to explain things and help me out, much appreciated :)
 
It must be me and one of them curious observations Tikay was saying about. I hate pokerstars, it feels like you see twice as many aces on there for some reason. I
 
I feel I've seen many many more online. When you see hands like this every few hours (http://i43.tinypic.com/4rvmvl.jpg) you can't help question this so called RNG. It's hands like that I think they want them sng's over as quick as possible. I have only played a fraction of your hands so maybe it will even it self out over time. I fully understand maths you've explained but I just feel like the small % outdraws massively outnumber the small % of hands won in the reverse situation. But like you say it could stick in my head more this is why I'm going to take notes and record hands just out of interest and maybe it will help me, screenshots and snips only take a few seconds and it won't be long before its 1000's of hands.

It just seemed really odd both times I'd won a seat. I've often thought they can just set an account on win mode to keep that players hopes up. With technology and software these days, that's very plausible. I shut my I poker account last week but had less than £2 on it. After requesting it to be shut I tested it a few time to see if I could still log on which it did so I thought I'd get rid of the tiny amount of money on there buy jumping on a micro stakes table. I found it hilarious that I couldn't loose a bloody hand and within 1.5 hours The money had increased by 1000% Again could just be coincidence but it made me even more skeptical. I think people will always play live poker as a social thing and a hobby, I get buzz when I can go and play live and clock watch like an excited kid. ( these posts are like being back at school with an essay lol)
 
It was a little more than just non-viable, it was down right stupid if truth be told. It just got me thinking when the sats went from 1R to 1R+ 1A. In a way I'm really glad this thread started as I've learned a lot, but wasn't really worth my rant as Im now probably banned from DTD. Surprised nobody quoted me and put this pic lol >> http://www.carra-lucia-books.co.uk/images/articles/209.jpg

I didn't know there was an actual case of I poker being found to use bots. Was there any court case with this? That shows these sites are willing to stoop very low, break the law and basically rob their customers :( That makes me think the idea of putting an account on win mode is even more realistic. None of them cases surprise me as large amounts of money is always followed by thieves :( They don't have to be rigged that much, a simple and small change in the % of higher cards given out in starting hands could massively change the speed a sng is over and rake in pots. Like in the eg hand above.. With software it would be very simple to do and willingness of sites to be shady makes it very plausible. This is why I'm going to have a look at the % of premium hands I get dealt out of interest.

Well you seem like a genuine, helpful and patient person to me and I wouldn't trust any man that lived in Thailand so the description suits you well :) A dude my dad used to work with was a Greek Cypriot, his first name and surname were the same lol dervish dervish he was called.

Only ever read 3 books sulphurman, this being one of them.  Ive logged in a few times and the screen has just been a pic of that book so I think someone on the admin team is suggesting the same thing lol It's not the bad beats, mate. It's the thought of it being unfair thats the annoying thing.

Genuine, definitely.

Helpful to my friends and good people.

Patient, erm, not always.


Showing your true colours here Mr Bigot.


I don't know your dad or the guy he used to work with but I DO know you're pretty stupid because Mr Dervish Dervish was Turkish Cypriot.



The last two statements kinda show why you not only lose at poker, but think it's rigged. Some people just lack intelligence. I wish you good luck and don't hold your stupidity against you.

Dump your burd, and come back and marry me costa costa x

if the title of the thread had been "People who run online poker networks could be shady" thn no-one could argue with you, and you're right, when big money like online poker is about shady business practice, fraudulent activity and scummy characters will never be too far away, no-one cold argue with you there. In balance though I know 3 people who are in charge of online poker sites, all good friends and all behave and conduct their business with 100% honor and integrity, so let's not assume everyone who runs a big business is a scumbag. (admittedly none of those 3 have any influence over the ACTUAL software)

However that's not what you're saying, you're saying that the poker sites actually CHANGE the cards the players get/that come out on the board in a bid to i) make the games faster so people play more and generate more rake, ii) So that satelite seats go to different people in a bid to reduce overlays, iii) to make certain players win so they continue to play+generate more rake. You're talking of "win-modes" for certain accounts with no real idea of what that means, and the delayed river card whilst they find the "right card" even though that would surely slow the games down?

Basically Sausage as we've all said a million times, your opinions are valid and you're entitled to them, but you nor anyone else has ever come up with a shred of decent evidence or circumstantial proof that it's rigged in this way, and thousands of people have said this, if you look on 2+2 forums some clever people+ players have been able to identify really complex cheating scandals just by analysing hand historys, without even mentioning the ludicrously high standards of market regulating it really does just seem unbelievably in-plausible that it's rigged in the mannor you think.

Good old Cosbay <3 lol

Now that Mitch has dumped me for the rudest person on facebook im all yours :)

Quite enjoyed Kill Everyone aswel.

Think the full content of them three books could be tought by Ali mallu very quickly. Play like a maniac and just don't give a hoot lol


Greek stain I'm guessing you also thought I was being serious with the decimals when scoring sites for riggness? Maybe I should have put 'joke' next to some of my lines to help you up tight folk. I have no time for pretentious people who take things too serious and have little sense of humour but I do apologise if I offended you with the Thailand line, that wasn't intentional.

If there are so many accusations and negative theories against these sites, you'd think they'd spend time and money in showing how their sites work and counter act all these theories with evidence that they are squeaky clean to keep the numpties like me feeding them with money. Maybe they have done and I'm yet to come across it, if there's plenty of stuff out there would someone kindly point me in the right direction.

It looks like not much more can be said on the matter and while it feels like you're getting tired of explaining things, I'm beginning to question your reasons for defending it all so well with it being your income and employment for your friends, but ill gave you the benefit of the doubt and thank you for the time you've taken to help me, much appreciated :)

Sausage, when you go to the petrol station to fill up your car with petrol, you're probably fairly confident that when it says you've put 45.68 litres into your tank - that you have in fact put 45.68 litres of fuel into your tank.

How can you be confident about this?  Well, the pumps are monitored and regulated by third-parties to ensure they're accurate and correct.  Also, the 'quality' of the fuel is tested and verified by independent third-parties.  So this means, even if you're paranoid about the fuel companies ripping you off by dispensing 990ml instead of 1000ml when it says a litre on the pump, you need not be.  In fact, if a company did try an rip you off in this way, imagine the fall-out if they were caught (which they would inevitably be).

The same goes for the RNG on poker sites.  They are regulated and checked, and companies like ipoker and PokerStars make enough money doing things 'honestly' - so why would they risk their whole business trying to bleed a few more percentages of profit through cheating?

Can you show any serious evidence to show that online poker is rigged?  You haven't shown anything yet, and you seem to be misunderstanding probability and randomness.  If I tossed a coin and you chose tails, and it landed heads 7-times in a row - would that mean the coin is rigged, or could it be that you've just been on an unlucky run?

I have a rigged coin available for inspection. It comes down heads 100% of the time. I also know a bloke who can toss a coin in such a way as to impart a ~70% bias one way or the other.

RNG's are much safer than tossing a coin.

I'm pretty sure petrol stations are rigged. When you approach £20 you slow right down and stop at £19.98 then just one tap of the nozzle and suddenly £20.02. How many times can people stop bang on? Always over, so rigged imo.

Yeah, but I can't do that - so me tossing a coin is going to be fair :D

I'm getting cofused here, what am I missing?

YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH108CHVRzU

Why have you quoted Dave and then part of my post?  They're referring to different things you've said.  I was referring to the RNG and how the hands aren't 'rigged' to favour a particular player or outcome. 

What has that to do with bots?  No wonder you're confused...

Sausage, you're saying that the sites are RIGGED, and what I assume you're implying by this is that the sites are manipulating what card comes where and who is dealt what cards to alter the action and produce them more money, everyone ITT is saying that there is no way they'd get away with it in a market place so heavily monitored and regulated, that there isn't actually any obvious financial benefit to doing this, and that in the all the years/scandals/investigations that's ever gone on in online poker there has never been a case of this happening - basically it just sounds to me, or anyone else who's very experienced in online poker, that this is totally implausible.

Now the point from my post you're quoting is me offering some balance to your argument - you said that big companies that deal in big money always has fraudulence and shadiness somewhere near it - there has been cases in the past of sites doing dodgy things, but in elation to the billions and billions of hands that get played every year, and all the online companies there really is no more (and prolly much less) scandal in online gambling than other industries.

Either way though your point was that the cards are rigged, that's not what I said.

10 pages. Incredible.

In all 9000900009373737 poker is rigged threads on the entire Internet, nobody has, as yet, come up with a good reason as to why sites would rig decks to favour player A over player B.

Best of blonde imo

I'm pretty sure live poker's rigged as well.

Who's to say that there isn't a force out there somewhere that constantly changes the next card until it actually gets turned over?

If anybody can prove what that next card is before it's actually turned over then I'll admit I'm wrong but until that day I'll stand by my guns.

Think he's probably just winding you lot up  ;laxie;

Doubtful... We've got a lad on our forum who is convinced Stars is rigged :)

His proof of it is that 'I know it's correct, because I've seen it when I play. The short stack always loses, to get them out of the tourney and back into another paying more rake'

:)

I'm with you on this one Matt.  Have you noticed that the dealer often pauses before dealing the river.  It's so he can do that trick and choose the next card.  I believe they teach this at dealer training at Hogwarts.

Views on this thread.

(http://media.tumblr.com/4b0853157d9dbfa53e6fa10e964e37aa/tumblr_inline_mini0opivC1qz4rgp.gif)
(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mf5pqmmAJl1r7x4z9.gif)
(http://media.tumblr.com/a4de90e5e34c663f706d914227911f22/tumblr_inline_mfieau2QXc1r0kxf0.gif)
(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lnlvpvLWdv1qfhuu5.gif)

This is now a .gif thread.

What've I walked in on?

(http://i.imgur.com/eezCO.gif)

I'll be leaving now

haha

dont think sausage is even here anymore?!lol

http://calvinayre.com/2013/04/27/poker/lock-poker-cancels-player-withdrawals-insists-all-is-well/ (http://calvinayre.com/2013/04/27/poker/lock-poker-cancels-player-withdrawals-insists-all-is-well/)

I can't prove they rig the cards but while I regret the original rant, I'm glad this thread was created cause it shows poker sites can NOT be trusted.

Do you think anything can be trusted, and if so, what?

The rigging of the RNG.

After 11 pages we're getting somewhere.

Unfortunately so is my headache.

Morning Mr bratwurst

I've found something rather interesting as to your theories (& everyone else's) as to the integrity of Online poker software. It is balanced, but extreme, both sides argued with such ferocity that folks ended up wounded in the crossfire, & needed a triage nurse.

Will upload it later, & I can promise you hours of fun & angst.  

VWP

Yeah, but I failed with triage I think. Need to prioritise better.

Brat isn't good, until it gets wurst.

Not sure who mr bratwurst is, but I'm intirgued :)

Ahh, we'll now Mr Sausage, I was just showing off at my grasp of language.

"Bratwurst" is a sort of sausage (German version), can't believe you never knew that, I've known for ages. (Since this morning actually).

Will post a link for you later, you'll enjoy it I think.

http://www.chacha.com/question/is-the-sausage-race-at-miller-park-for-the-milwaukee-brewers-rigged

http://craakker.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/pokers-watergate-moment.html

ffs is this thread still alive?

Kill it with fire.