blonde poker forum

Been playing this 30NL table for about 45 mins and I'm up to ~£51. We have all other players in the hand covered.

Villain 1 is a winning reg, not someone who I'd expect to get out of line very often, if at all. I usually play him at 20NL, and haven't seen him much at 30NL. Probably one of the better regulars at 20NL when I've played him although I don't think that's saying too much, to be brutally honest. I'm almost certain he knows I'm a winning player at 20-30NL. Apart from that I'm not sure how observant he is and therefore, how he would perceive me, although if he's paying attention he'd probably consider me to be LAG.

Villain 2 is a fish, usually sits with the default 80bb instead of maximum 100bb, doesn't top up, and does some really random stuff which I doubt even he knows why he's doing it some of the time.

Readless on Villain 3, although he just folds flop so meh.

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5 handed, we make a fairly standard raise to 90p with Jd 9d from UTG as it looks pretty and we can print money against Villain 2 post flop. We get 3 calls from Villian 3 (CO, £27), Villain 1 (BTN, £35) and Villain 2 (BB £18).

Flop is  Jh 7h 9s, giving us top 2 pair. Pot is £3.75

Villain 2 donk bets £1.80, and we raise to £5.40. Villain 3 folds, and Villain 1 calls. Villain 2 folds.

Pot is now £16.35. Villain 1 has £29 behind

Turn card is  6c

I bet £9 and Villain 1 calls. Pot is £34.35 and Villain 1 has £20 behind

River is  Ac, which is a reasonably good card for me as it doesn't complete any draws, although we are now behind to some more possible two pairs which are in his range (AJ, A6hh, A9hh). Also, if he thinks I can have the nut flush draw here, this card is potentially going to encourage him to fold KJ to a shove here, for instance, as some of my range just got there.

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1) Better to shove river or c/c, can we ever maybe b/c tiny (Thinking like £4) to try and induce a shove from a missed draw and still get some value from some showdown value hands which would just check behind otherwise, or is that just lolbad, and how often do we get called by worse if we shove? Basically what is the best line on the river?

2) Flop sizing okay? If not, bigger/smaller, why?

3) Turn sizing, considering villain's range is probably going to be a load of draws and TPGK type hands? Bigger/smaller, why?

Bump

All seems fine to me on each street, obv we can fold pre if we are a nit or on a tough table but i dont :P

River we are kind of committed really , probably losing alot here as i cant see what we actually beat bar ace flush draw. Cant fold because i dont know where the button is but bet sizing and everything else seems standard

Sorry i couldnt really add much more other then if you are playing well and sighing just c/f river

Check/Call/Lose my line otr

fold pre for sure.

As played, check and give up on this river, dont expect too many regs to 'take off' on a card that actually hits your range more than theirs.

When he cold calls flop, as a reg.. That would send alarm bells starting off for me tbh.

Don't play on sky tho.
What kind of hands did you think he had at each stage and why?

Depends on tables, but generally on sky we have stations so although our starting isn't exactly value we have good implied odds

Are you aware Sky is 6 handed aswell as that may affect your decision, i agree it is a fold a bit aswell but its boring saying fold pre :) also not awful if you have a good understanding of the table/stakes

Meh, this is a standard open 6-max. Open pre is fine imo.

What are his stats and over how many hands?

Obviously VPIP/PFR - from BTN specifically if enough hands on him

WTSD and W$SD

Fold to C-Bet for flop, turn and river

Bet % on river and agg factor for this street too

You say that they are a fish, have you got any specific reads on how they play their draws, TPTK and if they are more likely to slowplay sets and other monsters?

shove the river, doesn't seen too close? c/c does let him bluff missed draws but id imagine on sky at these limits you'd get much more lose/bad calls then bluffs.

Pre-flop seems ok-ish 5 handed, not great but i think we'd all open it in game.

Sorry, ignore this bit. Read the villain info wrong.

I wouldn't be folding the river, but looking at his stats (specifically river and WTSD stats) would help determine whether to check and induce a bet from a lot of missed draws, or whether it is better to bet/shove depending on how often you will likely get paid off..

Seems fine thus far. Jamming river and don't think is really close. Get crying calls from a J here sometimes at this stake, A-high FDs, 79. Obv if villain has a known tendancy to bluff lots then checking could be fine (assuming he jams his Ax, 79 for value and jams some FDs. If he's checking back this range much then it's a clear clear jam. Never c/folding here. Also never ever folding pre. Super-standard open. Certainly opening a reasonable amount of worse hands.

not everyone's a lunatic like you though thigh.

lol@ JB saying fold pre, the guy that opens Q2s utg FULL RING LIVE :D

I think the only bit that hasn't been covered already by others is the TURN bet size, which you asked about. I think you missed a few quid here, SUCH a draw heavy board, think £11 into £16 is quite a lot better than £9.

Rest seems absolutely fine, shove river and hand is wp.

HEM/PT don't work on sky i don't think. I vaguely remember someone telling me of another program that does work though

Yeah deffo shove river

Fair enough. Was only going to use them to determine the most optimal river line. Of course a shove is reasonable, however if your opponent is someone who will call down to the river and then fold 75% of rivers, but will bet say 80% of the time they are checked to. Then I like a c/c or c/r better.

If they aren't folding the river often then just shove.

This is not really a standard open UTG 6-max. To open it would be an exploitative adjustment, for example if the table is weak and especially if one of the blinds is a poor player.

Yes, I should have been more clear on that. It is a standard open in the games I play, where the majority of players are incredibly weak. I assume the same to be in most 30nl games on sky.
Of course if you have very competent, smart players acting behind, then it is a clear fold. As described by the OP, it doesn't sound that this is the case.

I agree with you Melissa.

Here is mz standard open range from utg

(http://resources.pokerstrategy.com/2013/02/19/utg_openraise-range_gro%C3%9F.PNG)

Here is how I would plaz vs a mp 3bet

(http://resources.pokerstrategy.com/2013/03/08/utg_vs_3bet_mp.PNG)


CO 3bet

(http://resources.pokerstrategy.com/2013/03/04/utg_vs_3bet_co.PNG)

BTN 3bet

(http://resources.pokerstrategy.com/2013/03/04/utg_vs_3bet_co.PNG)

sb 3bet

(http://resources.pokerstrategy.com/2013/03/08/utg_vs_3bet_sb.PNG)

BB 3bet

(http://resources.pokerstrategy.com/2013/02/19/utg_gegen_3_bet_aus_bb.PNG)

Should be fine.

Thanks for the charts, Pleno. Forgive me for being a little slow, but what do the colours correspond to? Call/Raise/Fold?

first chart obv open

rest are yellow is peel, blue is 4bf, orange is get it in.

gets cool when we get to other positions.

say another position and ill post.

Why are we 3/folding AQ @ 30nl? Surely just flat if we 3/f?

Peel AQ 3bet KJ instead?

We don't 3bet anything as we are utg.

Ducy?

Cool, makes sense. Can we see CO next? :)

Yes :)

co


Opening range:

(http://resources.pokerstrategy.com/2013/03/04/co_openraise.PNG)

vs UTG

(http://resources.pokerstrategy.com/2013/03/04/co_gegen_utg_openraise.PNG)

VS mp

(http://resources.pokerstrategy.com/2013/03/04/co_gegen_mp_openraise.PNG)

vs button 3b

(http://resources.pokerstrategy.com/2013/03/04/co_gegen_3bet_btn.PNG)

vs sb 3bet

(http://resources.pokerstrategy.com/2013/03/04/co_gegen_3bet_sb.PNG)

vs bb 3bet

(http://resources.pokerstrategy.com/2013/02/19/co_gegen_3_bet_aus_bb.PNG)

Like Honeybadger says, this is not a standard UTG open.

And tbh even the best winning regs are probably not actually winning much (longterm) from opening something as weak as J9s.

Interesting that Pat says he would open it as he told me his UTG range was 77+, AJs+, KQs+ as most of our profit at these stakes is not from UTG.  It's going to be from late position hands played well, stealing, restealing and bombing off weak ranges vs people that peel pre and flop weakly.

Giving me hasstle for something I may or may have not done live is clearly irrelevant, most of my experience online has been at this level and I would be looking for information about villain specifically to work out river action.  Vs some a shove will be terrible and vs some its mandatory.. readless it probably can't be terrible, but what some aren't pointing out/ realizing is that a lot of players at this level just won't be calling 3 bullets with one pair (clearly some will but not as many as you'd think).

My understanding is that no software works on sky, one guy made some and he was banned and they blocked that as well i think. - TK?

Agree with Alex on turn size, 11>16 does seem better than 9, however I don't think its a big deal...

Think the official line is they "Don't support" any software, and will ban anyone caught using it. There is software which works on Sky out there, although I don't use it for obvious reasons.


Should emphasise that "UTG" is actually the hijack as we are 5 handed - Probably should've put "Hijack" instead of UTG to avoid any confusion, so apologies.

Idk if this affects people's opinions on whether or not we should actually be opening J9s or not from this position?

Really interesting charts, need a bit of time to have a good look at them. What is the red colour coding? Did you produce these yourself, or are they part of a group effort?

This is true. I almost always open J9s UTG. Just checked my database and although a winning hand UTG, it is marginal. Don't know why it is causing a fuss, the open in this hand is absolutely fine

This is also a really good point, hence why I was asking for a little more info on the river tendencies of the villain. It is easy to say that you should shove vs an unknown, however you seem to have some history with said villain? A smaller value bet is even feasable against some who won't bet, but won't call a shove either. Very hard to say the optimal line here and I do think it is a situation that is very opponent dependent

I guess 5 handed it 'could' be an open, but I just don't like the way its been said "oh obviously its an open".  Granted being HJ is kinda cosy, but still got two people behind and just because its 5 handed doesn't mean they will 'open up'.  My general tendencies when shorter is to steal more and be more aggressive IP, not oop.

Main reason why i don't love the open (not that its really the main point of the thread) is just that its not going to be easy to value bet with this hand.
This is literally something i've been told in my diary a ton, this hand just doesn't make enough tp+ hands to value bet and that's where the money comes from at these stakes.

anyways...

river, agree with Melissa as I said above.. you might miss some value by checking but I just haven't 'caught' enough people going mental with missed draws at 10nl and 25nl in my experience.

i made the ranges for ps and they got a professional illustrator to put them into sexy articles in german and then in videos, i can share the content in month or so when its translated.

red colour coding is interesting

it means some percentage of the time call, some percentage of the time raise, range protection basically.

the way i do it is if i have ad or kd in the aa or kk combos then i flat and if not then i be aggressive, it means that i can control my frequencies.

MORRRREEEEE

The ACTUAL line is that third party software is NOT permitted, & that won't change in the foreseeable future, in fact, ever.

From time to time folks try to circumvent it by cobbling together Heath Robinson style homemade software. It generally gets spotted pretty quickly, & then it is easy to introduce code to road-block it. If someone has recently produced something, it is news to me, it'll be stopped soon enough, but guerilla style attacks will continue. The policy is quite clear, we don't think it is beneficial to the site, & we won't permit it, such as we are able.

Andy, I'd rather we had this duscussion in private, as you can say what you want, whereas I need to be a little more discrete.......

But no, that is NOT the official line. I'm not aware that ANYONE has been banned for USING it, the corrective action takes place upstream - the product is rendered ineffective by a coding tweak, & the supplier/maker/software writer is dealt with as appropriate.

Can we take it to PM if you wish to debate further, please? Thanks.

Ah, sorry didn't mean to make it sound incorrect.

Long as it works for you, Scotty says its a great place to play.

Wow. Stu agreed with me once, wasn't about a poker hand though was about a takeaway order but it's still a great great feeling :)

No worries John, I think you were only repeating a commonly held misconception. I saw a very similar thing on 2+2 last week.

In the cold light of morning, my Post does look a bit ranty, but it was not intended to be.

I am currently ensconced in the worlds worst hotel room ( by some distance) and my mood is grumpy, veering livid, outlook poor. (Shipping Forecast speak).

I will happily bander back and forth with you about poor quality hotel rooms....

A personal favorite coming to mind was when I had to change rooms a few times because of how bad x or y was in the room.  But on the 3rd room I was 'happy' to accept that in this room it 'only' dripped oil and smelly liquid from the air conditioning and only had a handful of cockroaches in the bathroom.  This was a significant improvement from the previous choices.

:(

Same here, apologies.


I think that is because whenever there's a thread about HUDs on the forum, it almost always gets snap locked with a "Sky Poker does not support 3rd party software" message. That's why I thought that, anyway.

No worries Andy.

They get locked for a reason, Andy. There is always a reason for everything. Not always best to show one's hand........

Third Party Software is NOT permitted there, & never will be. It is inevitable that from time to time, there will be attempts to circumvent this, it is a game without end. 

Happy to discuss it via PM if you wish.