blonde poker forum

Wish I'd posted this earlier, might have slightly misremembered exact bet sizes but I'll do my best.

Level 1 25-50 everyone has roughly starting stack of 20k.

I open in earlyish position to 125 with  9s 7s

4 callers including both blinds (pot 750)

Flop  Ts 7c 3s

Checked to me I bet 400.

Caller 1 (I'll call him C1 from now on) makes the call as does the BB. The other 2 pass. (pot 1950)

Turn  2s

BB Checks I bet 1100.

C1 calls.

BB makes it 2400.

I make it 3800.

C1 calls (?!)

BB calls. (pot 13350)

River  Qd

BB checks, I check, C1 checks.

BB shows  8s 6s

C1 shows  Td Th

I win the pot.

Thoughts?

Just call turn, 3b for value is too thin, what was your plan if you got 4b ?

Call turn and would go ahead and happily bet river for value when BB checks, just calling if he barrels.

Edit: Would fold river a lot if BB bombs it 3 way.

It wasn't a value 3 bet. Was raising as a kind of blocker bet.

Doubt either of them would 4bet (both were more mature gentleman - might have been older than me!) without the nuts - or at least the king flush.

Felt this was a cheap way of getting to the river and would have comfortably folded turn if I'd been 4bet.

Heads up I would have called the 3b, but both had to be wary of the fact it was a three way pot and either of them could be slow playing the nuts.

I don't really see any merits to the turn line.

We don't maximise the value of our hand when we are ahead and we've left ourselves in no mans land as far as how best to continue with the hand, just feels like we are over complicating this spot.

I really think this hand is butchered and you were very lucky to win the maximum here.

Preflop you are 400bb deep 2.5x seems ridiculous and something I see so many guys doing.
On the turn this is a very very clear flat call. Va a value range you are definitely behind and vs a range that reraises ki you are dead. 3b folding seems horrific.

I would rather call now and fold to 4k Otr than 3bet.

If we decide we should 3bettheb I would size to 5400 for value as 3400 and check back feels ridiculous when it's very likely on the river we will get more than 1500 in value if we continue after this.

Alternatively, calling now and donking river for 3500 will hear superior than raisin another 1400 now IMO.

Why is 2.5x pre flop "ridiculous"?

It's the sort of play I've made for 20+ years of playing tournament poker and I've done ok.

Anyway, as the other parts of your comments. When the BB raises me on the turn, what do we think he has? He's raising into two players one of whom has bet 2 streets. I think he's very very strong.

I don't necessarily think my hand is no good (obv would have folded if I had) but he's winning a decent percentage of the time. I think he's got sets, two pairs or a flush.

My raise is purely to make him define his hand. He's going to shovel it in with hands which beat me and play defensively with hands which don't.

Also, what do we think C1 has got? I actually though AT with the ace of spades was very possible, but in game I couldn't really peg him.

The three way aspect of this pot was the interesting feature, I would have simply called the 3b and probably a river bet in a heads up pot, but they have to play carefully 3 way too and my 4 bet gave me the initiative I thought. And it definitely saved me money if I didn't have the best hand.

Big three way pots played through the streets are pretty rare and must be approached differently.

20 years ago tournaments didnt start with 20k chips at 25.50 so often though right.

2.5x is a good sizing with certain stack sizes but 400bb deep I dont think it makes much sense. I will generally have a value oritentated range pre antes, espeically from early position and will be looking to get pots as big as possible, making it 2.5x will not help with this.

When BB raises you I think he is extremely storng and has a value range, this is why I was bemused with your turn 3bet. You just wrote you think he is very, very strong, but then you went to raise him again so that xou can "define" his hand. You can define hands more than just keep raising to find out where you are. It is so early and you have no history with the geezer so he can be upto anything.

I think its a very simple spot, we are getting an extremely good prcie vs a very very strong range, we should most likely call and I dont think he will bluff into 2 people on the river, nor do I think he will bet worse for value thus I will just go ahead and call now and fold on the river to almost any bet size. If he has tt or 86ss that is ok he has far more combos of hands that crush us, nevermind the other player in the pot who will have a strong range.

If I call, he's going to be firing at the river - probably in the region of 6 or 7k and I'm in a very precarious spot, especially with a player behind me who could easily slow playing the nuts.

I'm probably folding.

By raising I'm getting the information for 1/4 of the price.

With a set or a small flush he's calling. And checking the turn (unless it pairs up)

With two pairs he's folding.

With a nut flush or a king flush he's raising.

I like my raise. But accept it is out of the ordinary.

I am not so sure about my check on the river, think I might have missed a bet there. But that might be results orientated. My plan when 4 betting was to check the river.

sorry if my tone is abd btw, lots of tables

400bb deep we should be raising bigger than 2.5x with our entire range. We can still be fully exploitative, making it say 5-6x with our strong hands and weaker with our speculative hands - provided the table isn't observant enough - but we're rarely going to be getting 400bb in postflop in a smaller pot, and peoples' ranges in these things don't change hugely with respect to your raise size.

Having said all that, we still need to pay some respect to range-balancing in these types of tournaments. Even if our opponents are god-awful at playing hands they're still observant and liable to make some absurd bluffs. I think the purpose of the turn 3b is not to 'define' peoples' ranges but rather get him to play honestly vs our hand. In that context I like it.

When just called in two spots, though, I think we have the best hand quite a lot and should fire for value on the river.

Wazz, can you show me a Pokerstove with 2 ranges (one that c/r called and one that cold called a check raise) pls

Not sure the term "ridiculous" is fair terminology  :)

Its true there are a lot of people that will  stick to the same pre bet sizing  (2x for example ) right through the tournament and not adjust to players and changes in blinds and antes .

Early on in deep stack tournaments I like to mix it up and isolate the calling stations with 3.5 ,4  even 5x depending on the players at the table

As regards the river I would lead out , if Im ahead its  value betting but donking also acts as a blocker because  a marginal bigger flush is likely to just call  , however If I do get re raised Im pretty sure its a puke fold  (even though we now know we are ahead )

If truth be told I was just pleased my plan had worked exactly as I had hoped and was happy to check the river.

On reflection a bet of ~3800 would have been perfect.

Prob the only hands I'm losing to is the nut flush which C1 might still have or QJ flush of the BB - maybe Qx suited.

Far more hands I'm beating.

Well I would use the words awful, terrible and very bad but because these guys win money I find it ridiculous instead. I do think it shows a big disregard for stack sizes though.

What range are we value betting against on the river?

Far more hands or far more combos? Ax sites is alt d combos!! Terr is not that many set combos especially as we hve a blocker too.

A4
A5
A6
A8
Aj
Aq
K8
Kj
Kq
Q8
Qt
Qj


Remember just because one of them has a worse hand than u it doesn't mean the other guy does too.

Maybe im just the worst though.

Meh, with 97 suited I want to play a multi way pot pre.

I'm happy seeing the flop 5 handed when my opponents have zero clue what cards I might have.

If I'd made 225 to play the TT would definitely call, the 86 suited might not.

And that's definitely not what I want.

Obv but the but the nut flush is just one hand.

Would they have slow played this to death or charged a priced for sets to pair up?

Any set and lower flush...

Already given my reasons for leading out if we are beaten by any higher flush J ,Q even K high they may just call behind.

Patrick, you haven't mentioned at any stage what you thought C1 might have.

My whole strategy in the hand was that the BB could not make a move in the hand without pretty much only the nuts because I was 3 betting with him there which lends credence to the fact my hand is super strong. (stronger than it actually is for sure)

Yes but unfortunately in a RANGE there is not JUST weaker hands, it contains stornger hands too. So if we give him low flushes he definitely has higher flushes too.

I understand what a RANGE is hence I identified the hands we could be beating and then highlighted ( in red above) the flushes that were beating us (excluding the nut flush ofc )

Wazz come on, we are waiting on this.

Rofl

I don't get it?

Ohhh lol

i dont mind pre 2.5x but not from early this deep. agree w monda and plen  regarding turn etc. Just see so little value and so many bluffs in his range we freeze with the 3bet. I can definitely see a sicko ripping AsX v this line also.

I'm confused as to why 2.5x bet sizing is so bad with a hand like 9-7 suited, irrespective of whether it's 100, 200, or 400 big blinds. I understand it's (a) less likely we'll get all the chips in the middle and (b) more likely to encourage more speculative calls (which with a hand like 9-7 suited we surely want multi-way), but from a strategy view point why is it bad to play a 'small ball' strategy pre-flop? Is it a simple mathematical conclusion in terms of optimum game theory to raise bigger relative to number of blinds?

Camel i like the play, forget all these kids trying to keep some old boys 'bluffs' in

I think you are right, he smashes it with better, he calls with worse and doesn't accidentally bluff you when he value bets river, not to mention you get more value from C1

got to say, watched you on sky and though jesus that kids got game. nice innings that

I definitely don't want to keep any bluffs in. The fact the 'old boy' is never bluffing is the reason I don't want to keep putting money into the pot.

I just want to be probed mathematically that va two realistic ranges this is a profitable play please?