UKIPT Galway hand

[The Camel]

Wish I'd posted this earlier, might have slightly misremembered exact bet sizes but I'll do my best.

Level 1 25-50 everyone has roughly starting stack of 20k.

I open in earlyish position to 125 with  

4 callers including both blinds (pot 750)

Flop  

Checked to me I bet 400.

Caller 1 (I'll call him C1 from now on) makes the call as does the BB. The other 2 pass. (pot 1950)

Turn  

BB Checks I bet 1100.

C1 calls.

BB makes it 2400.

I make it 3800.

C1 calls (?!)

BB calls. (pot 13350)

River  

BB checks, I check, C1 checks.

BB shows  

C1 shows  

I win the pot.

Thoughts?

[mondatoo]

Just call turn, 3b for value is too thin, what was your plan if you got 4b ?

Call turn and would go ahead and happily bet river for value when BB checks, just calling if he barrels.

Edit: Would fold river a lot if BB bombs it 3 way.

[The Camel]

Just call turn, 3b for value is too thin, what was your plan if you got 4b ?

Call turn and would go ahead and happily bet river for value when BB checks, just calling if he barrels.

It wasn't a value 3 bet. Was raising as a kind of blocker bet.

Doubt either of them would 4bet (both were more mature gentleman - might have been older than me!) without the nuts - or at least the king flush.

Felt this was a cheap way of getting to the river and would have comfortably folded turn if I'd been 4bet.

Heads up I would have called the 3b, but both had to be wary of the fact it was a three way pot and either of them could be slow playing the nuts.

[mondatoo]

I don't really see any merits to the turn line.

We don't maximise the value of our hand when we are ahead and we've left ourselves in no mans land as far as how best to continue with the hand, just feels like we are over complicating this spot.

[pleno1]

I really think this hand is butchered and you were very lucky to win the maximum here.

Preflop you are 400bb deep 2.5x seems ridiculous and something I see so many guys doing.
On the turn this is a very very clear flat call. Va a value range you are definitely behind and vs a range that reraises ki you are dead. 3b folding seems horrific.

I would rather call now and fold to 4k Otr than 3bet.

If we decide we should 3bettheb I would size to 5400 for value as 3400 and check back feels ridiculous when it's very likely on the river we will get more than 1500 in value if we continue after this.

Alternatively, calling now and donking river for 3500 will hear superior than raisin another 1400 now IMO.

[The Camel]

I really think this hand is butchered and you were very lucky to win the maximum here.

Preflop you are 400bb deep 2.5x seems ridiculous and something I see so many guys doing.
On the turn this is a very very clear flat call. Va a value range you are definitely behind and vs a range that reraises ki you are dead. 3b folding seems horrific.

I would rather call now and fold to 4k Otr than 3bet.

If we decide we should 3bettheb I would size to 5400 for value as 3400 and check back feels ridiculous when it's very likely on the river we will get more than 1500 in value if we continue after this.

Alternatively, calling now and donking river for 3500 will hear superior than raisin another 1400 now IMO.

Why is 2.5x pre flop "ridiculous"?

It's the sort of play I've made for 20+ years of playing tournament poker and I've done ok.

Anyway, as the other parts of your comments. When the BB raises me on the turn, what do we think he has? He's raising into two players one of whom has bet 2 streets. I think he's very very strong.

I don't necessarily think my hand is no good (obv would have folded if I had) but he's winning a decent percentage of the time. I think he's got sets, two pairs or a flush.

My raise is purely to make him define his hand. He's going to shovel it in with hands which beat me and play defensively with hands which don't.

Also, what do we think C1 has got? I actually though AT with the ace of spades was very possible, but in game I couldn't really peg him.

The three way aspect of this pot was the interesting feature, I would have simply called the 3b and probably a river bet in a heads up pot, but they have to play carefully 3 way too and my 4 bet gave me the initiative I thought. And it definitely saved me money if I didn't have the best hand.

Big three way pots played through the streets are pretty rare and must be approached differently.

[pleno1]

20 years ago tournaments didnt start with 20k chips at 25.50 so often though right.

2.5x is a good sizing with certain stack sizes but 400bb deep I dont think it makes much sense. I will generally have a value oritentated range pre antes, espeically from early position and will be looking to get pots as big as possible, making it 2.5x will not help with this.

When BB raises you I think he is extremely storng and has a value range, this is why I was bemused with your turn 3bet. You just wrote you think he is very, very strong, but then you went to raise him again so that xou can "define" his hand. You can define hands more than just keep raising to find out where you are. It is so early and you have no history with the geezer so he can be upto anything.

I think its a very simple spot, we are getting an extremely good prcie vs a very very strong range, we should most likely call and I dont think he will bluff into 2 people on the river, nor do I think he will bet worse for value thus I will just go ahead and call now and fold on the river to almost any bet size. If he has tt or 86ss that is ok he has far more combos of hands that crush us, nevermind the other player in the pot who will have a strong range.

[The Camel]

20 years ago tournaments didnt start with 20k chips at 25.50 so often though right.

2.5x is a good sizing with certain stack sizes but 400bb deep I dont think it makes much sense. I will generally have a value oritentated range pre antes, espeically from early position and will be looking to get pots as big as possible, making it 2.5x will not help with this.

When BB raises you I think he is extremely storng and has a value range, this is why I was bemused with your turn 3bet. You just wrote you think he is very, very strong, but then you went to raise him again so that xou can "define" his hand. You can define hands more than just keep raising to find out where you are. It is so early and you have no history with the geezer so he can be upto anything.

I think its a very simple spot, we are getting an extremely good prcie vs a very very strong range, we should most likely call and I dont think he will bluff into 2 people on the river, nor do I think he will bet worse for value thus I will just go ahead and call now and fold on the river to almost any bet size. If he has tt or 86ss that is ok he has far more combos of hands that crush us, nevermind the other player in the pot who will have a strong range.

If I call, he's going to be firing at the river - probably in the region of 6 or 7k and I'm in a very precarious spot, especially with a player behind me who could easily slow playing the nuts.

I'm probably folding.

By raising I'm getting the information for 1/4 of the price.

With a set or a small flush he's calling. And checking the turn (unless it pairs up)

With two pairs he's folding.

With a nut flush or a king flush he's raising.

I like my raise. But accept it is out of the ordinary.

I am not so sure about my check on the river, think I might have missed a bet there. But that might be results orientated. My plan when 4 betting was to check the river.

[pleno1]

sorry if my tone is abd btw, lots of tables

[wazz]

400bb deep we should be raising bigger than 2.5x with our entire range. We can still be fully exploitative, making it say 5-6x with our strong hands and weaker with our speculative hands - provided the table isn't observant enough - but we're rarely going to be getting 400bb in postflop in a smaller pot, and peoples' ranges in these things don't change hugely with respect to your raise size.

Having said all that, we still need to pay some respect to range-balancing in these types of tournaments. Even if our opponents are god-awful at playing hands they're still observant and liable to make some absurd bluffs. I think the purpose of the turn 3b is not to 'define' peoples' ranges but rather get him to play honestly vs our hand. In that context I like it.

When just called in two spots, though, I think we have the best hand quite a lot and should fire for value on the river.

[pleno1]

Wazz, can you show me a Pokerstove with 2 ranges (one that c/r called and one that cold called a check raise) pls

[FUN4FRASER]

I really think this hand is butchered and you were very lucky to win the maximum here.

Preflop you are 400bb deep 2.5x seems ridiculous and something I see so many guys doing.
On the turn this is a very very clear flat call. Va a value range you are definitely behind and vs a range that reraises ki you are dead. 3b folding seems horrific.

I would rather call now and fold to 4k Otr than 3bet.

If we decide we should 3bettheb I would size to 5400 for value as 3400 and check back feels ridiculous when it's very likely on the river we will get more than 1500 in value if we continue after this.

Alternatively, calling now and donking river for 3500 will hear superior than raisin another 1400 now IMO.

Not sure the term "ridiculous" is fair terminology 

Its true there are a lot of people that will  stick to the same pre bet sizing  (2x for example ) right through the tournament and not adjust to players and changes in blinds and antes .

Early on in deep stack tournaments I like to mix it up and isolate the calling stations with 3.5 ,4  even 5x depending on the players at the table

As regards the river I would lead out , if Im ahead its  value betting but donking also acts as a blocker because  a marginal bigger flush is likely to just call  , however If I do get re raised Im pretty sure its a puke fold  (even though we now know we are ahead )

[The Camel]

400bb deep we should be raising bigger than 2.5x with our entire range. We can still be fully exploitative, making it say 5-6x with our strong hands and weaker with our speculative hands - provided the table isn't observant enough - but we're rarely going to be getting 400bb in postflop in a smaller pot, and peoples' ranges in these things don't change hugely with respect to your raise size.

Having said all that, we still need to pay some respect to range-balancing in these types of tournaments. Even if our opponents are god-awful at playing hands they're still observant and liable to make some absurd bluffs. I think the purpose of the turn 3b is not to 'define' peoples' ranges but rather get him to play honestly vs our hand. In that context I like it.

When just called in two spots, though, I think we have the best hand quite a lot and should fire for value on the river.

If truth be told I was just pleased my plan had worked exactly as I had hoped and was happy to check the river.

On reflection a bet of ~3800 would have been perfect.

Prob the only hands I'm losing to is the nut flush which C1 might still have or QJ flush of the BB - maybe Qx suited.

Far more hands I'm beating.

[pleno1]

I really think this hand is butchered and you were very lucky to win the maximum here.

Preflop you are 400bb deep 2.5x seems ridiculous and something I see so many guys doing.
On the turn this is a very very clear flat call. Va a value range you are definitely behind and vs a range that reraises ki you are dead. 3b folding seems horrific.

I would rather call now and fold to 4k Otr than 3bet.

If we decide we should 3bettheb I would size to 5400 for value as 3400 and check back feels ridiculous when it's very likely on the river we will get more than 1500 in value if we continue after this.

Alternatively, calling now and donking river for 3500 will hear superior than raisin another 1400 now IMO.

Not sure the term "ridiculous" is fair terminology 

Its true there are a lot of people that will  stick to the same pre bet sizing  (2x for example ) right through the tournament and not adjust to players and changes in blinds and antes .

Early on in deep stack tournaments I like to mix it up and isolate the calling stations with 3.5 ,4  even 5x depending on the players at the table

As regards the river I would lead out , if Im ahead its  value betting but donking also acts as a blocker because  a marginal bigger flush is likely to just call  , however If I do get re raised Im pretty sure its a puke fold  (even though we now know we are ahead )

Well I would use the words awful, terrible and very bad but because these guys win money I find it ridiculous instead. I do think it shows a big disregard for stack sizes though.

[pleno1]

I really think this hand is butchered and you were very lucky to win the maximum here.

Preflop you are 400bb deep 2.5x seems ridiculous and something I see so many guys doing.
On the turn this is a very very clear flat call. Va a value range you are definitely behind and vs a range that reraises ki you are dead. 3b folding seems horrific.

I would rather call now and fold to 4k Otr than 3bet.

If we decide we should 3bettheb I would size to 5400 for value as 3400 and check back feels ridiculous when it's very likely on the river we will get more than 1500 in value if we continue after this.

Alternatively, calling now and donking river for 3500 will hear superior than raisin another 1400 now IMO.

Not sure the term "ridiculous" is fair terminology 

Its true there are a lot of people that will  stick to the same pre bet sizing  (2x for example ) right through the tournament and not adjust to players and changes in blinds and antes .

Early on in deep stack tournaments I like to mix it up and isolate the calling stations with 3.5 ,4  even 5x depending on the players at the table

As regards the river I would lead out , if Im ahead its  value betting but donking also acts as a blocker because  a marginal bigger flush is likely to just call  , however If I do get re raised Im pretty sure its a puke fold  (even though we now know we are ahead )

What range are we value betting against on the river?