blonde poker forum

Good for the game or bad?

The likelihood of merged stacks in tournaments playing a traditional format is far greater than in those playing down to 10% and we've already seen players starting Day 2 with stacks that would be impossible to achieve other than through a merge which makes the issue worthy of further debate IMO.

When this idea was first mooted in Rob's blog a year back my initial reaction was that it favoured those with deeper pockets. Deep down I still have a sense that as someone with a limited bankroll for poker I am being disadvantaged by this innovation. I'm also feeling disadvantaged by the 130 or so miles between my home and DTD which limits my Day 1 opportunities. From conversations with others at my own local games I know I'm not alone in this.

Lots of people attempting to merge and failing to do so may increase the prize pool which is good. Conversely, lots of people attempting to merge and failing to do so may reduce the overlay, which is bad (for players in that specific tournament, although good for the long term future of DTD and thus ultimately good for everyone)
I appreciate that for an operator, having unused satellite tokens being banked for future use, or cashed in, isn't good. Especially when satellites have been generous in their guarantees with the aim of building the field in a specific event. Allowing merged stacks obviously avoids this problem.



Views?

One of the whole points of the multiple online day ones that DTD offer is so that players who live a distance away can make day 2, and stack merge attempt if they wish, without being disadvantaged relative to local players and saving a lot of exes.

Was good to you at Dtd at the weekend David,
It's pros and cons I guess
I don't wana sound like pure moaning when I post my view more take it as constructive post speaking my mind.
I think the stack merging is a bad idea overall, it does give a unfair advantage to people with deep pockets. Now I've heard the 'if the guy wants to spend x amount on a comp then it's up to him' but in the mini deepstack for example. Mark makes it through with 80k it's his first big comp buyin above £50, he sits down on day2 and there's for example again 3x stacks that have 350k plus from merging stacks and from the word go aggro pressure is put on his stack. I'd personally not enjoy the game and it would put me right off. This comp should of been for recreational players but insted (and this has even included myself lol) has become a gamble fest for most locals throwing £200+ at this comp.
Because the buyin is a good price people feel it's ok to keep tryin, I've felt the same at times. For the 300 fewer players will attempt to merge stacks so as Simon has stated before and I agree you won't see many do this at all.

I think the gran Prix will be a interesting test of stack merging where theres so many day1s and alot of players already with 5+ golden chips so our we going to get 1million plus stacks? Suddenly it's not recreational at all. me personally it's less about what gtd is being offered and more about layout and a comp that will appeal to all. I didn't see any problems with gran Prixs before, why change something that isn't broke maybe a few little tweeks like not being able to cash golden chips is fine.
I hope it don't go to crazy with stacks lol

In a nutshell im against the idea not sayin i dont do it but would be happy if it wasnt in place.would like someone to post who agrees with it and the reasons why? ;)

sorry for my grammar and missing words, posted on my phone and its being a bi*ch!

If it boosts the prize pools or helps meet these big Gtees DTD put up I'm all for letting people have several goes. Mathmatically (paging Tomson87!) Im pretty sure its -EV to try and stack merge once you're through, but majority of poker players make -EV decisions all the time so I'm not going to discourage it :)

Be good to see some stats on what actually happens...I played one in Melbourne that had three day ones and from memory (I know Rupert can clarify as sure Melanie had a side bet), only 6 stacks had two stacks at end of day two and none merged three stacks.  That was a wsop 3k starting stack structure.  They love them in Oz, have a few at the Crown and are very popular - called accumulators.  Whilst I wouldnr want them to become the "norm", think its a pretty good innovation to boost pools

agree simon, it no doubt boosts the prizepool or help them get closer to gtd which i agree is good, just wonder if it puts people off, i havent spoke to anyone who refuses to play because of it but there kinda unsure of where they stand , grand prix will be interesting

tomo will come on here and no doubt lay down some sick maths stat now u mentioned his name lol

Although it initially may have been suggested that the stack merging and online Day 1's would be of benefit to players travelling a distance away, I think they are actually of more benefit to the local players to the venue.

The travelling player tends to play out the end of the Day 1 with a 'playable stack' in mind to justify the travel and additional costs, whereas a more local player is going to be content with perhaps less of a stack as their additional costs to attend the Day 2 are minimal.  This makes for some crazy last levels with some player timebanking down and others getting very busy.

I know this happens at the end of a live Day 1 to a certain extent with players not wanting to return with a shortstack, but it seems magnified when playing online and the ability to merge stacks.

But saying that, I still think the history shows that stack merging doesn't happen that much, and when it does, it does not necessarily mean the player is at that much of an advantage.

+1

Rather have a £50 tournament and 50k Guarantee with merging stacks than a 20-25k without merging stacks.

Would prefer it didn't become standard practice but it won't stop me playing if it did.

 :hello:

Maths whizz explain stack merging and EV for us noobs?

 
Online day ones are a good addition to the scene although as a rec I want to play bigger comps live not online.

For the rest, I get four online day ones this week, locals get what, eight?

But...
If stack merging is -EV then who's disadvantaged, locals or me?

Can't remember the exact figures but last weekend there were 126 day 2 starters and over 140 stacks gone through so 15-20 did merge stacks.

It is what it is - it doesn't bother me either way but I do agree those with deeper pockets get an advantage but isn't that the same as everything in life.

The Grand Prix is another thing altogether though - several have got multiple chips so we know there will be some massive stacks playing day two - your choice is try and do the same or (like me) have a few goes and take it from there, try to come from well behind.

Stack Merging

The long of short of the stack merging debate is that is doesn't really benefit anything other than the prizepool (and therefore the rest of the field).  All players are doing by merging stacks is putting a ton of money into the pot (as do they not receive another min cash).  So in the case of the £50 deepstack, a player attempting to merge stacks would buy in for another £50 (extra money for the prizepool) and then forfeit another £150 when he sacrifices his min cash upon completion of the merge (extra money for the prizepool).  Therefore the overall prizepool for other players is increased by £200.  I could write a whole essay on this subject and show how terrible it is ev-wise to attempt to merge stacks given these conditions (and I can go into details if that's really what people want), but rest assured that been able to merge stacks isn't benefitting the players with deeper pockets, its costing them money.

From a personal point of view, I see nothing wrong with allowing players to merge.  Poker isn't all about EV's and maximum profitability, it's also about enjoying youself and in some cases supporting the club.  In this case, offering the ability to merge stacks is enabling DTD to offer amazing guarantees and payout large sums of money for a modest investment.  Merging stacks are most certainly not your enemy, however.......

Re-Entry

The real culprit for you feeling short changed is this bad boy.  It is always going to be that case that allowing players to re-enter are going to provide more opportunities for the pro's to make day 2.  If you look at the WSOP Main Event and hypothetically make that into a reentry with 5 day 1's.  You have the capacity to end up with 5x Phil Iveys, 5x Big Dans and 5x any other big name sickos you care to name.  This will massively increase the ratio of pro's to recreational players as the pro's will be able to take 5x bullets vs a recreational 1 bullet.

This is a really extreme scenario and its certainly not what is going on at DTD.  Admittedly, you are going to get some of the better players taking 4 or 5 bullets thus increasing the ratio of better players.  But then consider the additional benefits of being able to offer a £50k prizepool for an investment of £60.  The tournaments run with this structure have attracted massive fields and therefore a ton of recreational players who are prepared to throw £60 at a chance to win £10k (or £115 at £20k).  At this level of buy in I would suggest that the amount of recreational players who come through the door to take a shot will far surpass all the 2/3/4/5 bullets taken by a handful of regulars.

Summary

I think DTD have got the structures and tournament set ups absolutely spot on for everyone involved.

I tried to keep this as simple as possible without going into detail, but anything doesn't make sense then feel free to come after me ;D

thanks Tom.

as Ross said earlier in the thread it could make for an interesting  GP with some players having 8+ Golden Chips and thus playing 8+ Day Ones

on a side note, given.your comment about it, is re-entry into the same Day One a good idea?

It doesn't matter when you can re-enter its still the same scenario.  But certainly for travelling players been able to re-enter on the same day several times should things get ugly can't be a bad thing?

Here are a few stats;

The average player played 1.24 times for the £100 Deepstacks, and 1.39 times for the Deepstack Mini, I would predict this to be 1.1 times for the £300.

On average only 33 players play an Online Day 1 and a Live Day 1

Therefore, multiple Day 1's Live and Online just give players more options to participate (fit in with work/personal schedules), in reality, generally players don't multi-entry loads of Day 1's just because there are more available, no matter what players claim/say they are going to do.

In my opinion allowing players to merge is better for the dynamics of the game - especially on the last level of a Day 1, rather than allowing same day re-entry which would be much better for hitting GTE's, but we believe changes the dynamics of the game more towards a + 1 re-buy rather than a re-entry.

We are trialing the merge concept, doesn't mean it will remain, most things continue to evolve naturally, often by these type of threads and discussions in the Club face to face, both really help us.

Cheers Simon

    Cannot think of a business so  innovative and responsive to customer feedback.

What about Bubbles massage parlour ? ;)

Ooh! What have they invented?

I am given to understand they satisfy their Customers.

So I gather, but he said innovative and responsive.

I am given to understand ( nice one Tony ) that although their's is the 'oldest profession' they
do adopt to customers needs and tackle any problems head on and with great enthusiasm.

For some members , far less worldly than you Tom , I am sure they are very innovative.

Would you like a last longer Tom.........at Dtd next time I see you obviously ;D

 :)up

lol, that place is not far from me  ;D

I have to warn you, I'm very experienced at grinding a short stack.

Good point Tom , forgot when you go allin , you always have the goods.

200,000 stacks are worth just about twice the value of 100,000 stacks.  You definitely don't lose £150 by merging stacks, as you'd gain most/all of that back in the expected increase in your prize money.  If you are +EV in the tournament it is unlikely you are giving up much by stack merging and it is entirely plausible that better players could gain.

Poorer players will probably suffer a bit due to the presence of better players with bigger stacks, but it just isn't going to make that much difference. If it is only 10% of people (or so) who have a merged stack and some of them will be lucky bad players, then the difference in overall difficulty should be close to zero.

It is just an opportinity for a few people who like to vent about not very much.  If anything keeps the prize pools big and the overlays manageable at DTD it should be welcomed.

Cheers.

"200,000 stacks are worth just about twice the value of 100,000 stacks"

I don't think they are Doobs.

If I double up first hand of a comp my EV in that comp doesn't double. Probably increases by a factor of about 1.3-1.5, in my opinion of course.

I had planned my first trip down to DTD from Bradford a few weeks ago for one of these big tourneys. However, the day before going I thought I'd have another look at the website and this is when I noticed the 'stack merge' aspect of the competition. It was an action killer and it bothered me enough to cancel my trip and make alternative plans to play locally like I usually do. Interesting to look at the stats on how many people use the stack merge...I had assumed most players would be entering as many day 1s as possible. If I was in a position to play more day 1s than the average then I'd consider it again (don't agree that this is -ev for a +ev player). However, personally, I would be much more keen to come down and play in a straight forward structure with re-entry allowed on each day 1 but no stack merging, even if this meant a lower guarantee. I will make it down to DTD sometime soon anyhow (been playing live poker about a year now...sure I can find a structure I like one night...has to be done!). New to the forum btw....hi peeps! ;)

1.5-1.8 for me.

Doobs if you could buyin for a standard comp, say the big 55, for 110 and get 6k chips would you? But doesnt that mean in rebuys we shouldn't double rebuy? This is confusing. The double first hand of the main not being worth it concept made so much sense but now I just don't know.

And welcome Howezer!

Hi Ho How.

Yeh I don't get that either. It's probably something to do with the fact that everyone else is rebuying so you're at a disadvantage not to I dunno.

I don't think if you ALONE were give the chance to buy in for 110 and have 6k in the big 55 it'd +EV, unless you're ROI was really big

I don't mind stack merging as once you're through I don't think it's advantageous to attempt a stack merge.

It's like re-entries it can get more money in the pot.

But there's a balance between short term increasing the pot and long term sustainability.

I think DTD have the right approach of trying it lots of different ways.

Though I do miss the days of playing a "proper" freezeout.

Adam has this much more correct than Alex.  At the final table, double the stack might only increase you EV by 1.5, start of day 2 with a hundred people still in, a double stack is going to be worth much closer to double your value.  If you have an edge it can be case that it is worth playing multiple day 1s.  Of course if you are average or below against the field this will be a mistake. 

Simply, you aren't definitely an idiot for playing multiple day 1s and you aren't giving away £150 by doing so.  If I get through from day 1 in one of these £50 comps, I am pretty sure it would be a good decision for me to do so.  If they did the same in a £2500 WSOP, I am confident I would be spewing money to do so.  I'd find it much harder to decide if it was worth doing ins £300er or a Monte Carlo.  I suspect bankroll rules would stop me doing it in the latter, and I may well have a go in the former.

But overall I just can't see people who can just play one day 1 losing much, if anything at all, by the presence of people playing multiple day 1s.  My guess is there really isn't going to be much in it.  I guess those that enter multiple day 1s are going to be slightly better than average as a rule, but they lose a bit on the second bullet as the double stack will be worth a bit less than 2x a single stack.

It all just feels a bit swings and roundabouts, and people really shouldn't worry that this is going to massively change their likely return in the tournament.

On my phone so this will be somewhat of a primitive response.  At the point of successfully merging a stack we should have £200 in our pocket (300 in cashes - 2 buy ins at 50).  What has actually happened is we have min cashed once for 150 and bought in twice for 100, meaning that we have made £50 total.  For it to be worth it, those chips that we merged have to be worth an additional £150 in equity more than the single stack we had already.

Not only that, but what about all the times we take a 2nd bullet and fail to merge stacks?

And I've just realised its even worse in the £50 mini cause we can merge and still bust before the money!!!

"So in the case of the £50 deepstack, a player attempting to merge stacks would buy in for another £50 (extra money for the prizepool) and then forfeit another £150 when he sacrifices his min cash upon completion of the merge (extra money for the prizepool).  Therefore the overall prizepool for other players is increased by £200.

Not to be pedantic here Tomson, but if a player buys in for another £50 it ain't increasing the overall prizepool for the rest of the field by £200! The player himself clearly loses the £150 min-cash value, by virtue of the fact they've already min-cashed - but the prizepool (and additional value to others) only changes by the additional amount invested.

No, he puts £50 back in and then doesn't take a 150 min cash which would have been paid out should a non-merging player have made the money.  If the player doesn't take the 150 cash, then where else does it go???

That's the point - he still gets the £150 min cash, he's just paid an extra £50 (or however many attempts it takes him) to do so - the amount added to the prizepool is whatever amount he's reinvested from 2nd/3rd/4th attempts etc. So as an example:

Player invests £50 & min-cashes for £150 - prize pool £50000 - player profit £100
Player invests £100 & min-cashes £150    - prize pool £50050 - player profit £50 - rest of field share out the extra £50 from his 2nd attempt

It's 60 quid for an average of 8? hours entertainment

Working out +EV this -EV that seems kind of pointless because no one should be playing these to make money, your hourly is going to be higher playing 6 tables of 5nl or a 25p 50p cash game.

Obv rebuying is going to be -EV you don't see apestyles and other HS regs open jamming every hand pre add on in the 200r anymore, the 1k Scoop cubes and w/e else have much more "EV" single bulleting too

Chip EV and $EV 2 very different things

I was still thinking about the 100 deepstack where all players who made day 2 made the money.  If this was the case then if 5 of the players merged stacks that would be 5x min cashes that wouldn't get paid out and be reinvested in the prizepool.

I forget this wasn't the case with the 50 deepstack.  The payouts and merging stacks are of no consequence in the 50 deepstack and there is no money to be made when the stacks are merged.  This makes merging an even worse proposition though.

Your average stack on day 2 is worth £500, not £150.  All this focus on the min cash, and how people lose it by merging, is fairly flawed thinking. 

I know $EV and chip EV get much closer to each other the earlier in a tournament you get. I also think you neglect the power of a big stack on the various bubbles at your peril.

And somebody asked if I'd pay 110 for a double stack in the big 55.  Almost certainly not, I never play it anymore, nothing worse than playing until 2 am to make 50 dollars.  If they gave you the option in some faster paced (non turbo) tournaments on the French sites, I likely would.

Good night all, I don't think I am going to play this thing anyway, next few weekends busy.  Good luck all those that play.

5 players merging stacks does not create 5 extra min-cashes to be re-invested into the pool.

The min cash loss of £150 is only relevant to the player(s) who chose to stack merge ; the prize pool impact is the extra money invested from additional attempts by the stack merger (which could be less or more than the min cash value of £150, dependent on the number of additional attempts). If we assume everyone who makes day 2 min cashes, the number of min cashes can only be affected by the number of players who enter.

So: - if 500 players play and 10% of field min cash, 50 get a min-cash
      -if 500 players play, 10% min cash, but 50 of these entrants have chosen to stack merge - there's still the same number of players (500) / players who will min-cash (50). The only impact will be an increased payout to the field which will be distributed across the prize pool dependent upon the prize pool % structure.

This can't be the case.  I'm pretty sure DTD didn't go back and retrospectively pay out players who had bubbled!  10% made the money inclusive of merge stacks, it wasn't increased to 11/12% to accommodate the merged players.  If a player doesn't take a 150 min cash, the money has to go somewhere, it will get redistributed amongst the other places.

As woodsey says though, it's a £50 tournament and noone is gaining anything from merging stacks!!!  A £50 tournament is meant to be fun and if a smaller prizepool and guarantee with no options to reenter or rebuy will get more people into the club then so be it (I don't think this is the case though)!  You can't have a big tournament like this without the option to reenter or rebuy, and you can't have the option to reenter or rebuy and not offer players anything in return for doing so. 

some merged stacks last weekend had 500k + which against an average stack of 100k put that player into a strong position to go very deep into the torney!! meaning a substantial cash rather than a min cash is likely to happen.  I think players must allow themselves at least one attempt to merge stacks otherwise they are at a disadvantage on day 2.

av stack at start of day two last week was 187k not 100k...

Although a big stack is not always a certainty for a deep run - 1 player with 2 stcks did come 2nd last week but another who took a smidgen sjhort of 1,000,000 chips through busted in 25th

When I have played online where you can enter more than once as soon as your stack is merged you receive that cash prize and continue playing for more - so for example with the Grand Prix where every day 2 player is in the money some one with 3 stacks would receive 2 min cashes and play with their merged stack (can of worms)

I hardly bother with the rail now, so gutted I didn't read this earlier.

Rob and Simon have always liked to come up with new ideas, but also they like to make things affordable for players, but its tedious that's it's being introduced into the £300 DS. This isn't trying to look after people's pockets & its quick becoming a higher end tournament because of this. Not only is stack merging allowed, but re-entry too. I can understand the re-entry, it has become natural to the game now, but allowing stack merging here is just allowing people to play who have plenty of money. It's pretty much possible to buy yourself into the last 20-30 places through merging stacks. I know it's likely that if you get above a stage stack you won't go again, but its still possible to buy a very deep stack.

I can appreciate it in the the other tournaments, but in the old faithful? It is a tad disappointing. It's becoming a very expensive tournament, think numerous more days added too? :(

Add them to others, even the GP, but not this one, IMO. I really don't think anything with bigger buyins should be experimented like this with IMO.

After your recent punting success this sounds like a cunning enough plan to earn yourself millions.

Is there a point where we think trying to merge is +ev?  Like if we make day 2 with 50bbs I wouldnt see the point in trying to merge as we are relatively deep, but if we make it with 15bbs is it worth trying to merge? 20bbs?

Taking this idea to an extreme:

If you took £10,000 worth of bullets in a tournament with £10,000 for 1st, would you be more or less than 100% likely to win?

The lack of 200 day 1s is likely an issue first.

There may also be an issue that the venue doesn't serve food if I'm hungry.