Stack merging

[rfgqqabc]

"200,000 stacks are worth just about twice the value of 100,000 stacks"

I don't think they are Doobs.

If I double up first hand of a comp my EV in that comp doesn't double. Probably increases by a factor of about 1.3-1.5, in my opinion of course.

1.5-1.8 for me.

Doobs if you could buyin for a standard comp, say the big 55, for 110 and get 6k chips would you? But doesnt that mean in rebuys we shouldn't double rebuy? This is confusing. The double first hand of the main not being worth it concept made so much sense but now I just don't know.

And welcome Howezer!

[tikay]

I had planned my first trip down to DTD from Bradford a few weeks ago for one of these big tourneys. However, the day before going I thought I'd have another look at the website and this is when I noticed the 'stack merge' aspect of the competition. It was an action killer and it bothered me enough to cancel my trip and make alternative plans to play locally like I usually do. Interesting to look at the stats on how many people use the stack merge...I had assumed most players would be entering as many day 1s as possible. If I was in a position to play more day 1s than the average then I'd consider it again (don't agree that this is -ev for a +ev player). However, personally, I would be much more keen to come down and play in a straight forward structure with re-entry allowed on each day 1 but no stack merging, even if this meant a lower guarantee. I will make it down to DTD sometime soon anyhow (been playing live poker about a year now...sure I can find a structure I like one night...has to be done!). New to the forum btw....hi peeps!

Hi Ho How.

[cambridgealex]

Yeh I don't get that either. It's probably something to do with the fact that everyone else is rebuying so you're at a disadvantage not to I dunno.

I don't think if you ALONE were give the chance to buy in for 110 and have 6k in the big 55 it'd +EV, unless you're ROI was really big

[Cf]

I don't mind stack merging as once you're through I don't think it's advantageous to attempt a stack merge.

It's like re-entries it can get more money in the pot.

But there's a balance between short term increasing the pot and long term sustainability.

I think DTD have the right approach of trying it lots of different ways.

Though I do miss the days of playing a "proper" freezeout.

[Doobs]

"200,000 stacks are worth just about twice the value of 100,000 stacks"

I don't think they are Doobs.

If I double up first hand of a comp my EV in that comp doesn't double. Probably increases by a factor of about 1.3-1.5, in my opinion of course.

1.5-1.8 for me.

Doobs if you could buyin for a standard comp, say the big 55, for 110 and get 6k chips would you? But doesnt that mean in rebuys we shouldn't double rebuy? This is confusing. The double first hand of the main not being worth it concept made so much sense but now I just don't know.

And welcome Howezer!

Adam has this much more correct than Alex.  At the final table, double the stack might only increase you EV by 1.5, start of day 2 with a hundred people still in, a double stack is going to be worth much closer to double your value.  If you have an edge it can be case that it is worth playing multiple day 1s.  Of course if you are average or below against the field this will be a mistake. 

Simply, you aren't definitely an idiot for playing multiple day 1s and you aren't giving away £150 by doing so.  If I get through from day 1 in one of these £50 comps, I am pretty sure it would be a good decision for me to do so.  If they did the same in a £2500 WSOP, I am confident I would be spewing money to do so.  I'd find it much harder to decide if it was worth doing ins £300er or a Monte Carlo.  I suspect bankroll rules would stop me doing it in the latter, and I may well have a go in the former.

But overall I just can't see people who can just play one day 1 losing much, if anything at all, by the presence of people playing multiple day 1s.  My guess is there really isn't going to be much in it.  I guess those that enter multiple day 1s are going to be slightly better than average as a rule, but they lose a bit on the second bullet as the double stack will be worth a bit less than 2x a single stack.

It all just feels a bit swings and roundabouts, and people really shouldn't worry that this is going to massively change their likely return in the tournament.

[theprawnidentity]

On my phone so this will be somewhat of a primitive response.  At the point of successfully merging a stack we should have £200 in our pocket (300 in cashes - 2 buy ins at 50).  What has actually happened is we have min cashed once for 150 and bought in twice for 100, meaning that we have made £50 total.  For it to be worth it, those chips that we merged have to be worth an additional £150 in equity more than the single stack we had already.

Not only that, but what about all the times we take a 2nd bullet and fail to merge stacks?

And I've just realised its even worse in the £50 mini cause we can merge and still bust before the money!!!

[dwayne110]

"So in the case of the £50 deepstack, a player attempting to merge stacks would buy in for another £50 (extra money for the prizepool) and then forfeit another £150 when he sacrifices his min cash upon completion of the merge (extra money for the prizepool).  Therefore the overall prizepool for other players is increased by £200.

Not to be pedantic here Tomson, but if a player buys in for another £50 it ain't increasing the overall prizepool for the rest of the field by £200! The player himself clearly loses the £150 min-cash value, by virtue of the fact they've already min-cashed - but the prizepool (and additional value to others) only changes by the additional amount invested.

[theprawnidentity]

No, he puts £50 back in and then doesn't take a 150 min cash which would have been paid out should a non-merging player have made the money.  If the player doesn't take the 150 cash, then where else does it go???

[dwayne110]

That's the point - he still gets the £150 min cash, he's just paid an extra £50 (or however many attempts it takes him) to do so - the amount added to the prizepool is whatever amount he's reinvested from 2nd/3rd/4th attempts etc. So as an example:

Player invests £50 & min-cashes for £150 - prize pool £50000 - player profit £100
Player invests £100 & min-cashes £150    - prize pool £50050 - player profit £50 - rest of field share out the extra £50 from his 2nd attempt

[LonOhRay]

It's 60 quid for an average of 8? hours entertainment

Working out +EV this -EV that seems kind of pointless because no one should be playing these to make money, your hourly is going to be higher playing 6 tables of 5nl or a 25p 50p cash game.

Obv rebuying is going to be -EV you don't see apestyles and other HS regs open jamming every hand pre add on in the 200r anymore, the 1k Scoop cubes and w/e else have much more "EV" single bulleting too

Chip EV and $EV 2 very different things

[theprawnidentity]

I was still thinking about the 100 deepstack where all players who made day 2 made the money.  If this was the case then if 5 of the players merged stacks that would be 5x min cashes that wouldn't get paid out and be reinvested in the prizepool.

I forget this wasn't the case with the 50 deepstack.  The payouts and merging stacks are of no consequence in the 50 deepstack and there is no money to be made when the stacks are merged.  This makes merging an even worse proposition though.

[Doobs]

I was still thinking about the 100 deepstack where all players who made day 2 made the money.  If this was the case then if 5 of the players merged stacks that would be 5x min cashes that wouldn't get paid out and be reinvested in the prizepool.

I forget this wasn't the case with the 50 deepstack.  The payouts and merging stacks are of no consequence in the 50 deepstack and there is no money to be made when the stacks are merged.  This makes merging an even worse proposition though.

Your average stack on day 2 is worth £500, not £150.  All this focus on the min cash, and how people lose it by merging, is fairly flawed thinking. 

I know $EV and chip EV get much closer to each other the earlier in a tournament you get. I also think you neglect the power of a big stack on the various bubbles at your peril.

And somebody asked if I'd pay 110 for a double stack in the big 55.  Almost certainly not, I never play it anymore, nothing worse than playing until 2 am to make 50 dollars.  If they gave you the option in some faster paced (non turbo) tournaments on the French sites, I likely would.

Good night all, I don't think I am going to play this thing anyway, next few weekends busy.  Good luck all those that play.

[dwayne110]

5 players merging stacks does not create 5 extra min-cashes to be re-invested into the pool.

The min cash loss of £150 is only relevant to the player(s) who chose to stack merge ; the prize pool impact is the extra money invested from additional attempts by the stack merger (which could be less or more than the min cash value of £150, dependent on the number of additional attempts). If we assume everyone who makes day 2 min cashes, the number of min cashes can only be affected by the number of players who enter.

So: - if 500 players play and 10% of field min cash, 50 get a min-cash
      -if 500 players play, 10% min cash, but 50 of these entrants have chosen to stack merge - there's still the same number of players (500) / players who will min-cash (50). The only impact will be an increased payout to the field which will be distributed across the prize pool dependent upon the prize pool % structure.

[theprawnidentity]

So: - if 500 players play and 10% of field min cash, 50 get a min-cash
      -if 500 players play, 10% min cash, but 50 of these entrants have chosen to stack merge - there's still the same number of players (500) / players who will min-cash (50). The only impact will be an increased payout to the field which will be distributed across the prize pool dependent upon the prize pool % structure.

This can't be the case.  I'm pretty sure DTD didn't go back and retrospectively pay out players who had bubbled!  10% made the money inclusive of merge stacks, it wasn't increased to 11/12% to accommodate the merged players.  If a player doesn't take a 150 min cash, the money has to go somewhere, it will get redistributed amongst the other places.

As woodsey says though, it's a £50 tournament and noone is gaining anything from merging stacks!!!  A £50 tournament is meant to be fun and if a smaller prizepool and guarantee with no options to reenter or rebuy will get more people into the club then so be it (I don't think this is the case though)!  You can't have a big tournament like this without the option to reenter or rebuy, and you can't have the option to reenter or rebuy and not offer players anything in return for doing so. 

[mumblesrock]

some merged stacks last weekend had 500k + which against an average stack of 100k put that player into a strong position to go very deep into the torney!! meaning a substantial cash rather than a min cash is likely to happen.  I think players must allow themselves at least one attempt to merge stacks otherwise they are at a disadvantage on day 2.