blonde poker forum

Playing the Stockton GUKPT 25/25

It's 300/600-50

Average is showing on the board at 32,000

I start the hand with 28k.

UTG is chip leader on the table with 60k he makes it 2200 to play.

There are 5 (yes, five is not a typo!) callers - all have somewhere around chip average.

I'm in the bb. I squeeze open KK.

Been playing a long time never encountered a spot like this before.

What should I do?

Jam

7k get two callers and dodge the case ace.

Yes, on reflection jamming was the right play I think.

I went down the Tal route (which always a dangerous route to travel in my experience).

But it begs the question.. how many chips would I need to have before jamming was not the correct move? (Surely if I have 60k too, shoving isn't the way to go is it?)

And if I have that many chips, how much do I raise it by?

wow you guys seriously want to jam?

id make it 8500

At the risk of sounding like some of these kids on the PHA threads...

There are so many free chips on offer in these comps. You have to be able to back yourself to win pots in spots like this against one or two players. Why jam and make 13k when you can basically double up with a squeeze and CBetJam?

In a £500 comp, I understand the shove more, but these comps are in my experience highly varied in ability by £200 standards. Lots of local qualifiers, hence the 5 callers :)

Gotta stack dem chips.

TBH I found the standard of play alot better than I expected. Maybe because I suck nowadays.

But this was really the only LOLZ hand in the six hours I was in the event.

I guess once the first guy had called, small pairs and suited connectors went up in value incrementally as more people called.

The button can call with virtually any two cards that vaguely resemble one another.

Fair enough. You know what the table was like.

I'm just very rarely expecting to be called when I shove here. People don't want to go out and I'd expect tens and AQ to fold most of the time and to be shown AK/JJ hitting the muck at least as often as I am against them.

Fine enough to add basically 50% to your stack, but I can't believe it's optimal.

I am jamming if my stack is less than 35k.  making it 9000 if my stack is above 35k.  I had a very similar pot in the £500 turbo at dtd at the sky event which i cried about for a while after getting snapped by aq off and not holding.   You will get called by a lot worse in these spots and you are never butchering the hand shoving imo.   By making it 8500 out of 28000 you are playing your hand a lot more face up imo at this level and will likely get less action than just shoving.

Jam, and if he calls with AQ, call him names and post his hendon mob all over the internet.

DISCLAIMER

I'm sorry arbboy, I just couldn't help myself :D

no worries!  I actually beat you in.

Only five callers? Some of the field must have been from out of town.

Make it 10k exactly. Jamming is a pussy option imo :D Loses so much value.

Don't mind jamming, don't mind 3betting to anywhere between 7k and 10k. Jamming gonna be lower variance, not jamming likely to be higher EV. But probably not that much between the two, so just do whatever you want to do IMO.

If you 3bet to 7.5k (or whatever) and everyone calls lol... well you're probably gonna get knocked out of the tournament on this hand. But no problem - the times you don't bust you are going to have a HUGE stack!!

A jam seems really unlikely to be called given how weak everybody's ranges should be here, which i think means we're essentially wasting it. Don't get given KK that often! Would prefer to give them a chance to peel, and maybe suicide rebluff us lol.

I'd probably jam a hand like AJ here a lot.

Raise to about 9k

Jam? No-one got any balls anymore?

Raise to 9500 and fade those sets.

If someone wants to call 9500 with KQ or 66 and outflop you then gl to them imo.

<3

Also if you want to jam 50 bigs pre with this action then just don't bother regging. Its really really bad. At least give people the chance to make mistakes. Ace high flops should be the really easy to play and the least scary boards.

Agreed but there are 24 bigs in the middle here is it really that bad to take the lower variance route here by shoving and being happy to add 50% to your stack if you don't see a flop? (still with potential to get looked up by worse a lot of the time) In an live £200 event like this (with multiple day 1s in 25/25s - this is after the re entry period for this day 1 as they stop after level 3 i think) surely you make your hand look more like ak/aq/aj/jj/1010/99 by shoving in this live low/mid stakes environment than you would by committing a third of your stack to the hand by raising and not shoving - ie the last guy or two to act thinks along the lines of 'feck me i am getting close to 2/1 to call here (with his medium pair he is set mining with and gives you a spin for 'value' knowing he can re enter the 2nd/3rd day 1 later in the day)  What happens if the utg peels and so do all/most of the other customers?  Are you getting your stack in on the flop with any non ace flop?  

As i said earlier something very similar to this happened to me and i am interested in people's thought's as well.  

I would 100% not jam.

7500 ish.

yeh agree with this. really really surprised about the jam camp here.

not sure why this is seen to be higher variance anyway, people will likely stack off on flops with overpairs (that will call you anyway) or top pair i.e AQ on Q23 or something, if anything AQ won't see 5 cards anyway.

ok let's say the guy has 5x'd it pre instead of the 3.75x he has raised(this happens in £200 live donkfests) and got 5 callers and there are 38 bigs in the middle and you are playing 50 bigs what are you doing now?

Absolutely, the stack to pot ratio will be approximately one so I'm not worried too much. I really doubt the more than 2 players ever call when they will be putting roughly 1/3rd of their stack in too. I'm not scared of busting, I play to make money. If the last guy wants to setmine I'd even give him a discount. If everyone called I'd be reasonably happy too.

Shoving over the 5.5x is reasonable but I'd be more inclined to make it 20x and see what happens. I'd probably go broke on ace high boards headsup then but shit happens.

my don't bother regging comment is a bit harsh despite being aimed at no one in particular but I stand by the general sentiment.

If this is "the hand" you're on about from the comp the other week, that was in the very late stages of a (1k?) comp. This is the early stages of a local £200 deepstack. The fact your stack size was similar in relative terms to OP's here doesn't make it comparable.

I don't think jamming is acceptable in any buyin tournament!

The thing is, people will still make 'mistakes' against a jam too. Not wanting to dredge it up again... but I refer you to the infamous arbboy KK vs AQ hand.

Given stack sizes/SPR on flop etc, opponents will very likely not be continuing vs an 8k-10k squeeze here anyway. But who knows.... someone might call an overbet jam, because 'noone would ever jam with AA or KK'. You are probably getting all folds whatever sizing you choose, and we are just guessing whether you are likely to get more action with a jam or with a normal sized 3bet. So IMO a jam is likely to be almost as +EV as any other sizing. I don't think it really matters what sizing you use, just do whatever you want.

I'd personally always make it 7.5k or whatever to play. But I certainly would not say that jamming is "really really bad" or "unacceptable". It is non-standard to jam, that's all.

I called a 63bb 3bet squeeze in a tourney the other day with AKs. He had KK. Well played him IMO. Tricked me innit.

Also, IMO the worst amount to make it is 9k-10k (sorry Dave, Alex, baldock etc). If you wanna 3bet rather than jam then way better to go somewhere around the 7k mark. Gives the illusion of someone having fold equity vs you, you CAN be 3bet/folding with that sizing etc, and makes it possible (albeit unlikely) that you will get a caller (or five lol!).

All just my opinion of course. And I am not strongly attached to that opinion because I still don't think it matters too much what sizing you use here.

listen to this man!

Very much disagree Stu, that in a live £200er ppl are "very likely not be continuing vs an 8k-10k squeeze given stack sizes/SPR on flop etc"

I don't think these are things that are being considered. Well, they might be. But I think it's more likely they are considering:

whether or not you are "AT IT"
how pretty their hand is
do they wanna pay 10k to see a flop
all that money out there
if I call everyone else might call.

I think these things are more likely to be the factors rather than SPRs, whether you can 3bet/fold from your stack, or whether they have fold equity.

Meh, I don't think all players are thinking about SPR and 3bet/fold ranges and fold equity in those exact words. Some of them will be though. But for the rest, they think stuff like:

"If I call this 10k then that pot is gonna be really big and I'm gonna have to play for all my stack if I hit anything."

"I don't think he's gonna fold after he has already put 10k into the pot. He's committed himself"

"He's never at it when he bets 10k"

Which are essentially the same thing.

Meh there's like 14k in the middle and we have 28k. I don't see that jamming is terrible. We can all agree it's better than making it 5k or folding at least :-D. I was trying to do the thing that looked weakest. I'm all for making it 10-12k and never basically never folding post flop but our range for doing this is basically KK+ only. I guess we're assuming no one is good enough to realise this.

Do you really want to be 6 handed with KK though? If 2.2 was called 5 way then imo and especially live, 7.5 total is also likely to get called in 5 spots.

I think you probably still get a caller and a chance to double with a jam as one player is likely to call thinking you have picked a good spot to pick up 14k

I don't agree with this. Sure, if four call, number five laughs and says "value now!" before flicking in the chip. But KJ, A8 and J7cc all fold most of the time now and you end up against one or two guys with a lot of lovely dead money in the pot with the best hand.

We do also have UTG to go crazy behind with TT/AK.


Just don't see many people stacking off in this spot with marginal hands. They might have a braintrump and shove into kings, but there is far more hesitance in these comps in my experience to call it all off for a race at best.

Exceptions to every rule of course. Bound to find the guy who put you on ace king and knew he was right to call with sixes. When he's shown cowboys*, he flips his lid and exclaims to anyone wondering what on Earth he's doing  "How does he EVER have kings there?!"




*kids, that's what we used to call them back in the day.

This is almost identical to a hand I played at Caesars 2 years back in their megastack things.  Pretty similar stack sizes.  Think I made it 10k or something from BB, and got one caller.  Ace on flop.  I shove and he thinks for ages and calls with A4.

If I played this hand again should I be check folding when the Ace flops?

Is this your new diary ?

Welcome back.

The biggest demerit to jamming imo is that given the action most probably nobody has anything here. So we'll just get a bunch of folds most of the time - not really our desired outcome when we have kings despite the amount of money in the pot.

We won't be able to avoid going broke on some flops especially if it goes multiway, but we'll be entering the fray with way the best of it and the greatest chance to pick up a huge tournament winning kind of pot.

Personally i'd be making it 8300.

:D i laughed out loud at this.

Maybe 6800 is best get a couple of callers and play flops easily. Ranges are so deak pre that people will fold and like Adam said if we get all calls it's not thaaaat bad.

Fk no I'm not jamming here. By jamming you will definitely get people to fold hands that they would peel with and once they peel and flop anything to do with the board they will go with it because they will realise the pot is so inflated by this point.

I'll make it 8k ish and lead out small on any board that isn't Axx and Kxx pretty much.

I did make it 8200.

Two callers.

Flop was A82

I check folded when big stack bet 10k and the other caller shoved.

Big stack had AQ and other guy A8ss. :/

Glad you're back posting Keith

So u done what Pleno would have done, still the best in the business then Camel.