blonde poker forum

Day 1, level 8. Blinds 400/800/75. Eight handed. I have c.35k and am in the big blind.

UTG shoves his 4,900 in (this probably isn't an awfully narrow range). Folded round to SB. SB is a tricky local player and by this I mean capable of anything, even though he generally has a level of discipline and has some level of equity when the cards are on their back. He has not long won a pot where he called 3bet pre and c/raised twice on something like 75QA and got AT to fold, before showing KK. Ace Ten man wasn't impressed, but that gives you an idea of what I mean when I say tricky.

Anyway, back to my hand. SB thinks for a while and calls the 4,900 after a think. He has about 45k total.

I look down at  Ks Js

I believe calling is correct, getting a little over 3/1. Dry side pot.

Flop  Jh 8d 9h

SB checks.

I bet 4k. Want to protect my hand. I have flatted with KJ and the Jack high flop is great, but wet.

He now check-raises to 10k (a 5k and five 1k chips, despite having other 5k chips available, if that's of any interest).

My thinking now goes:
- He isn't likely to have the same hand as me, as a bare jack would lead and the Jack of hearts is out there.
- same goes for slowplayed big pairs.
- He might well have expected me to bet more than 4k - half or more of the side pot - and then he can shove.
- in which case, with such a wet board, where he can easily have two pictures or suited cards, he has a lot of draws in the range of hands he would raise with
- He likely isn't doing this with nothing, as he knows I won't have nothing
- There's c.30k in the middle after his raise and I can shove for c.20k more, where he might be able to fold some of his draws

So, I shove and he calls with  Qd Ts

This did not go well.

Should I have done anything differently?

Over to you.

[Plucks up courage, breathes deeply and presses Post]

what kind of hands do you think he's doing it with? kq/aq? or what did you expect?

I would most likely check call this flop and assess. When someone is all in players generally tend to play straightforward due to the dry side pot. If he checks back flop bet most turns

Ok, hands like:

T8
T9
76
KQhh
Ax hh

Won't be small pairs and won't be big pairs, including sets.

That's essentially what I decided at the table. Stacks and pot seem ideal for me to play the hand as I did.

Happy to be educated otherwise.

I also think having shown a bluff he's very unlikely to be bluff raising

If I do that, there's 25k in the middle and there are a lot of horrible turn cards, where I could be shoving dead.

Am I not better off taking some fold equity by 3betshoving?

Sorry for positions mixed up. Think betting is fine but it's pretty gross when he raises. Still would
Probably check back for pot control/deception on this texture (esp live where I'm trying to small ball)

That is interesting. Chap is good at putting such things out of his mind and I'm not entirely sure he thought he was bluffing at the time. It is a worthy point, though. Check raising again is obviously noteworthy.

In my hand, I don't believe he is bluffing at all. I believe he has something of that flop and, if the chips go in now, I will be ahead but needing to dodge.

I'm not a fan of his call pre btw. Seems pretty thin from sb

Well he's not bluffing in your hand cos he has the nuts- am I missing something? Or do u mean in general?

Rubs.

:D

No, I mean in general. That's my perception of the sort of hand he has when he c/raises the flop.

I think u will never see 67 in this spot. He surely folds this pre and doesn't c/raise with it when he could be dead to the top end and also has hearts to worry about.

The rest of the hands you listed you're not in great shape against

why do you think he's calling t8/t9/76 pre?

I mean obviously his peel pre is terrible but then he prob knew he was going to flop 5 in a row vs top pair.

Does sound like the type of guy you'd be happy to stack off to tho. But we should start doing this by calling flop and hope he has TT/JT/JQ/KQ/AQ/AK. Shoving doesn't achieve a great deal (he may fold the previously aformentioned range some amount of the time which is obv bad) other than getting it in badly vs his 88/99/QT/J8/J9/AJ/JJ/QQ/KK/AA

Also like a check behind otf due to stack to pot ratio, would be pretty crap to scare his worse hands off when he's reasonably likely to start betting those hands on the turn and river

and finally, what do you think your range looks like?

If he is never bluffing against his range I think it's a pretty easy fold. I'd try not to think about hands in terms of "ahead" or not but in terms of the equity his range has. Also I wouldn't worry about betting for protection on such a wet board. I'd prefer to get to river as cheaply as possible or get some value on the turn

67 least likely of those mentioned, agreed.

As for shape, flipping at worst and getting a good price with fold equity?

This is where u need to run your numbers but I think you're in worse shape than u think. You're either flipping or dead

Check back and call turn and river on some run outs and just call turn on others

I've played with him a bit over the years (local comp player) and middle, broadly connected cards are fairly common. 4,500 more and he will know that UTG could have an awful lot of hands, plus I might fold. T8 type hands certainly there, IMO.


Let's assume he has a perceived view of me from the past, because I'm certain he does.

I could do this with AA/KK/QQ (though I'd probably raise pre, but I could trap and I'd prob bet more on the flop. Wouldn't be unheard of for me to misplay a hand). I could do this with TT/KT/Tx, if I were trying to get him to raise to get it all in. I think he would put me on those and the hand I have.

However, he has a queen and a ten on this board and he'd be concentrating far more on hoping I shove than worrying about what I might have to do so. I don't mean that disrespectfully, but I think it's fair.

If he knows your range on that flop includes over pairs why would he raise some of the hands you mentioned?

Why do you want fold equity?

Happy with the call pre?

Am I not happy to win the pot here, risk free?

Fair point. That is the truthful answer of what I think, if questioned, he would assess as my range as. However, I come back to the point I doubt he's actually decided on a range of hands here. If he has a draw, he wants to get it in, if I'm not going to check it down.

If I check behind, he is going to be happy to check it down until he hits and probably won't bluff the missed river more than a third of the time.

I think you're over estimating the times he is r/folding here

Quite possibly, but isn't any time better than never?

This is really interesting, though. Keep it coming!

And again I'd probably encourage u to not post results. Perhaps get to the flop and ask wwyd? Once u have responses then ask wwyd after he c/raises. Results cloud responses

Well I assume you're trying to make the best long term decision not just in 10/100 instances

Would you not be happier to double through him instead of getting only some of his chips? Apologies if I'm coming across patronising here  ;ashamed;

That's a generous assumption, George. Thanks :D

Ok, so, let me flip this:

I check behind and the turn comes:

a)  Kh and he bets 7k
b)  7d and he bets 7k
c)  Td, we check and the river is  2h, where he bets 7k
d)  Td, we check and the river comes  2s, where he checks
e)  3c, we check and the river comes  2s, where he checks.

My concern is he is mostly going to bet when he hits (so I am calling to fold to a bet quite. a lot) and he checks it down when I win (so I get no more off him).

By shoving, I get all the chips about half the time (approximately, at least) and occasionally at least he folds.

Do I want to fold top pair when it's likely ahead right now?

I know what you're saying. I think he folds very little because of the range of hands I'm confident he is most likely to have. However, he might fold every once in a while and that's not a bad thing, doubling my stack without much trouble (assuming we win against the random hand UTG - he actually has 22 but we don't know that)

He's taken the betting lead otf as it stands with our flop decision. When we call the effective stack to pot ratio will be like 0.5, he's literally never checking once we call flop.

Of your scenario's:

a) call and call river
b) one of the crap cards we have to reassess on, sometimes still stacking off
c) call river
d) 8k/f
e) we never check behind on this turn but if for whatever reason we did like a disconnection timeout then we bet 10k on the river

i think you're worrying too much about making decisions when u should be embracing them. It's what I enjoy most about poker

Sorry, Pichop. I misclicked on e). I'm definitely betting a blank turn.

Even I'm not that bad.


I like decisions, too, but I also like mastering my own destiny and I didn't peg shoving as being worse than calling, so be the aggressor.

If that assessment was the mistake, that's fine and precisely why I put the hand up for discussion.

By the way, as hands I've posted on PHA go, this is going remarkably well. Normally, it's "what on Earth were you thinking?" (In before tikay)

i don't get what u mean by mastering your own destiny in this instance or in general?

My general view is, if I think he has a draw and my hand isn't improving post-flop, getting the money in there and then seems best.

I'd check behind a lot more in cash I think. In a tournament situation like this, there's a big pot to be won and I am likely ahead.

What has been said here does suggest reflection on the above, but that is certainly in my head when I put my chips in.

He now ... (a 5k and five 1k chips, despite having other 5k chips available, if that's of any interest).

Your posts are always so detailed!

Just out of interest, can anything be taken  from 2 chips instead of 6:)

Subconsciously he must be saying he wants more chips :dontask:

I like to give everyone as full a picture as I can.

Say what you see and all that.

(http://www.flumps.org/funny/catchphrase/images/holdingdownajob.jpg)

There are a few interpretations (clearly, we have the benefit of hindsight, but anyway):

- more chips looks like a bigger raise, which carries the dominance his subconscious would be telling him to display (we all want to celebrate and promote our success; it's an animal instinct)*
- He might have intended to bet 9k instead and changed his mind as he was picking the 1k chips up
- He might have intended to bet 9k and actually picked up the wrong number but didn't want to look daft by putting one back
- He intended to raise and picked a handful of 1k chips, not caring how many
- He didn't want to put two 5k chips in because he wants to keep them (again, that's a pure subconscious thing when we look at it now with hindsight, because any logic tells you he wants to put all the chips in with this hand)

If I were going to choose one, knowing what I know now, I would say the first one. Could be any of them, though, in theory. Off the top of my head, that would be the list of possibles in general, when I see that happen.


*This is an exception to the broad rule that betting with smaller denomination chips is a sign of weakness. That can be quite an effective live tell, btw. But this is a situation where there are lots of physical chips in stacks, he's still betting with the second highest denomination chips and we also know he has the nuts!

sigh lol

When we call pre, SPR is really awkward. I don't know if there's any hands I would be calling in this spot pre.

On the flop, really like what G2L has said.

Ah. Didn't realise you were being sarcastic. I believe in this stuff, despite "tells" being a dirty word in 2015. When you play in a casino, you're playing against people and people exhibit human characteristics. I know this falls on deaf ears these days, but there we are.


Could you expand on this, please? Why is my SPR bad? Playable hand in position, where checking it down more likely than normal.

Are you saying the call is wrong and I should fold? Raise? Fold or raise but never call?

Surprised they allowed Hand Job on catchphrase?

Like a check on the flop. We're not really getting value of anything (QJ aside) because we defo have a good hand as we are betting into a dry side pot.

We don't really need to protect against that much either, we don't wanna see an Ace a Ten or a Queen on the turn but that's pretty much it - I wouldn't be worrying too much about hearts either.

It's good but it's not right.

Holding down a job.

that well known catchphrase :P