Greek Jack all in called by Adam Picken

Jack AQ v Adam A9

7-K-8-9-5

greek Jack out in 9th

#donttanglewithcurly

Too right!

Just another trivial fold.

well played imo, now call

having played in these specific games a lot.

Never 3bting anything without a sooted A or K pre, always bigger than £14.

please expand.

Pls don't, it is likely to hurt.

Feeling the love guys..

I mean by this, I'm not 3bt-ing any sooted cards that don't have either the K or the A of the suit in them... purely because we don't get enough folds in these games in my experience.  They will be peeling with almost all suited hands and therefore I want to stack off with all flush draws in most situations.  We will mostly have an overcard or tp + draw... making us a flip at worst vs the majority of most peoples ranges and often crushing when they have a sd + fd combo.

horrible thinking?

Over-thinking I think, but certainly not horrible.

Not really, you get checked to sometimes, you can bluff raise stuff that isn't good enough to call - weaker pairs/gutshots/air and you can hit draws/nice hands. When you flat you get alot more information on the flop about your opponents likely hand strengths. You are more able to gauge bet sizings/timings + board texture and decide whether your image is good enough to represent something stronger or whether you have implied odds or to take a free card etc. If you 3bet, you  lose relative position - the hand will likely get checked to whether they have hit or not and you will have a more difficult time folding out pairs etc.

I'm not saying 3betting isn't profitable though, alot of the time people will flat and just fold flops. Having the initiative is a bit easier but its also overrated, particularly with more money behind.

All of this, even what black said and more - esp in this particular stake game.

But flatting means we only get a good chance of winning the pot when we hit it...

mostly yes... because these games are really really weak..


the way we beat these games isn't by making people fold, its by value betting and bluff catching when they blowup!
(wish I could hear myself sometimes)

Yeah I mean I'm not going to go into too much detail as theres not very much point but imho 3 betting J9s to an amount where you are basically always going to receive 2 callers is not a good play, esp when at least one you think is clearly good and rolled for the game. Hand is a nice but not great hand, the position is sweet.. A5o or something I would understand. This is from years of playing and doing not just talking nonsense. One of the main points is the person you're 3 betting, it could be fine isoing a fish with this hand but not a good player.

Like £24 pre. You want to be in a spot where you can at least win the pot pre, and it may not be worth while 3bing here in order to keep any fish in.

If its one of the two people i think (Howden/Cristo) snap fold vs Howden and lol at Cristo, ask him how big his current ds is and call, hes raging atm and def would fire with something ridiculous here. Its not even a size he could vb for, he reads hands too well/gives his opponents too little respect to fire 105 for value although i can imagine you would garner a degree of respect from him if you've spoke. So many live tells too

Maybe not 24 but I agree, think the 3 bet (especially the size) is a little fps'y at this game, lets take a flop. and LOL at the rest of your post

24>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>14 though

If we cant win the pot pre we effectively pay £9 to take a bloated pot ip with initiative, which doesnt sound bad but we are getting 4b bluffed vs (Cristo) and can see a flop ip. At least make him consider folding. Abso fine if we are isoing a weaker opponent when luke(Keylek)/howden/cristo are in the blinds but not this spot imo.

3b/call both fine pre could even argue a fold if he is particularly early. So nice 200bb deep ip tho.

edit: sigh and fold, dont beat anything really, would be really surprised to see a bluff

You posted simultaneously with my post saying hand was at the Vic. Villain unknown but think early 20s, fancies his chances, generally active pre. He was button to my straddle and raised 100% of my straddles that reached him un raised.

.

Oh you're right, sorry dave. Therefore I would fold unless I'm just absolutely sure he is bluffing.... What is he turning into a bluff though? And preflop opinion still stands.

Fold pre although everybody will disagree. If we do open then 2.6-8x > 2.0-2.3

Haha, correct about disagreeing with pre. Spoke with some people about it

hihi

My thoughts on pre are pretty much fold if the opponent is good pre ante and raise if he is not good. So hard to pot control oop with hands like this that even if it is +Cev (Which im not sure it is) it probably isn't a good spot against a good opponent. As played I don't think I check the turn - my reasons are that it looks like we have a showdown hand that we're going to c/c c/c (ie like we have exactly what we do have) that I don't expect to get bluffed too often, I feel like we do have to lead the turn to get any bluffs from his range. I think call the turn and soulread the river is the play, unless he is ginger in which case I just fold as soulreading riv would be impossible.

Nath pics and updates plz gl Alex too.

A 2/20 chance of winning the jackpot... so 1/10 ? = £320 EV? Obv pile in but I don't think the jackpot is that likely is it??

And Dave come on, we definately miss you @ Gala, so I hope this hell freezes over soon.

If I was you in this spot I would jam but JK is right its suppppppppper gross but folding is yuk too and with only two bets to get all the money in I can't imagine really what his leading range is..

PokerStars Hand #86337456292: Tournament #614707183, $40+$4 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XI (125/250) - 2012/09/18 0:27:02 WET [2012/09/17 19:27:02 ET]
Table '614707183 98' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: thagrinda444 (5214 in chips)
Seat 2: AlwaysGoBig9 (7754 in chips)
Seat 3: luckyno75 (3288 in chips)
Seat 4: Milkos61 (2965 in chips)
Seat 5: jp4est (2070 in chips)
Seat 6: MRBRAINWASHR (6869 in chips)
Seat 7: MillWall1723 (3000 in chips)
Seat 8: AlcateL00 (9724 in chips)
Seat 9: pipo4 (6029 in chips)
thagrinda444: posts the ante 30
AlwaysGoBig9: posts the ante 30
luckyno75: posts the ante 30
Milkos61: posts the ante 30
jp4est: posts the ante 30
MRBRAINWASHR: posts the ante 30
MillWall1723: posts the ante 30
AlcateL00: posts the ante 30
pipo4: posts the ante 30
thagrinda444: posts small blind 125
AlwaysGoBig9: posts big blind 250
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to AlcateL00 [Ah ]
luckyno75: folds
Milkos61: folds
jp4est: folds
MRBRAINWASHR: raises 375 to 625
MillWall1723: folds
AlcateL00: raises 875 to 1500
pipo4: folds
thagrinda444: folds
AlwaysGoBig9: raises 6224 to 7724 and is all-in
MRBRAINWASHR: folds
AlcateL00: folds
Uncalled bet (6224) returned to AlwaysGoBig9
AlwaysGoBig9 collected 4020 from pot
AlwaysGoBig9: doesn't show hand


a)I 3 bet to call the shove from the original raiser, as the shover was tanking I decided that i should probably fold to his shove. Then when he shoved I noticed I was getting 1.6-1, so I paused for thought and then figured if his shoving range is ak aqs + and TT+ its still a fold. However obviously if his range is much wider at all it makes this a call and I have no information to guess his shoving range here, especially if I am ever ahead (ie shoving hands i dominate etc). Does anyone else agree its a fold or any other thoughts??

b)Also considering I am planning to call an all i should probably make it 1398 or so instead of 1500 as I guess I am not trying to discourage reshoves etc... Do we agree with this too?

villian dependent Keylek. This guy wasnt spew at all, he was solid and had been for the 3 hours previous. I thought it much more likely for him to barrell off flop and turn at least  than go crazy if we raise the flop. I imagine him to expect me to be floating this flop a large % of the time, down the streets i would be looking to get called by Ax Jx type hands. If we raise the flop it puts him in a bit of a coffin with his Ax and Jx hands and he might hero fold these as my image was very solid at the time also.

I agree with quite a bit of this, really interested to hear other opinions also, so am going to wait a bit... And by spew I don't obviously really mean spew, to him you may be repping pretty much a nothing and it might just seem like free chips to him, even if both of you have been playing snug. I guess maybe your image isnt right for it and maybe kirbynator is tighter than average sicko reg, i don't know these things

I've been thinking alot about this hand the last few days and have some thoughts to add to the dicussion

*disclaimer* as of writing this post I have not read the replies to OP past a page or two but will read through them before I post in the thread again. Also I do not know if results hafve been posted but I think they are needed by now??

I like preflop, stack size wise we have a relative monster with position and a great price. I don't think anyone can argue against a 4bet too much but I don't really think it is correct to 4-bet call and if stack sizes were slightly shallower I could also see a 4 bet jam being a viable option.

As played, even vs a really solid reg such as Kirbynator I think you have to call. There is no hand range or hands that he can really have to have us beat.. I would imagine a player of kirbynators calibre to keep betting the turn if he turns a flush draw more often than not as we are unlikely to raise too many of our holdings, normally his hand here is just a hand that is check calling the turn to jam the river as he believes we can't call a shove, so just a retarded bluff - nothing. I mean if he is sick enough to take this line with a hand like AA 33 or w/e because it looks so bluffy then fair play to him give him the money I guess. I mean the only viable hand he can really have with this action is 89s feeling we're strong on the turn so c/c's it but I mean this is unlikely.. I say call riv and would be interested to see how anyone can disagree, if no-one does I would love to see results.

Anyway, that is my opinion of the hand as played, but I would like to propose an alternative way to play the hand... This particular flop AJ3 rainbow is so ridiculously dry and i think just raising the flop small is such a sweet way to play vs regs, repping exactly 33 or AJ as we're unlikely to have AA or certainly JJ with preflop, yet it makes so little sense to raise with the m that all the hands that pay you anyway, AQ AK etc will obviously still stack off one wayt or another once you raise the flop. When you flat call on the flop your hand looks pretty much like an ace or a good jack or something slowplayed, yet when you raise a dry flop like this it looks so weak and bluffy your range will likely be opened up in the eyes of your opponent that you may well induce 3 bet spew on the flop or c/r spew on the turn, also hard for him to just fold an ace in this position cos wtf u dont expect o get raised on this flop after 3bettingpre however if we flat we rely on him having a good hand or deciding to barrell off vs some obvious showdown... thoughts???

10/10

Picken got it in pre for 380,000 with AJ against the A10 of Ed Overall.
Overall found no help, Picken on 800k, Overall on just 2 big blinds at 60k.

I love this game!


Bet Adam P Couldn't do a smile like that 20 minutes ago