Never thought rate my shares would get above the crypto thread again, that says a lot about Bitcoin. It's been a pretty brutal few months on the markets, but still would rather be in stocks losing 20% over a short period of time than in something like ETH and nursing 90% losses with no sign of a recovery.

Some of the current bitcoin commentary is pretty hilarious - below 5k dollars now and people still trying to call likely bottoms, chart resistance and trends.

Made me wonder if people who sell goods or services in btc, convert to fiat instantly to ensure they collect the level of cash that they expected to from what I assume must be constantly fluctuating btc prices.

Assume most do as I can't imagine how you would run your business with such a high degree of 'currency' fluctuation and volatility.

This then, seems to really beg the original question that most sceptics would have in terms of the utility and benefits that accrue to any business making it's offer in btc.

It's money Jim, but not as we know it (deep insight, wahahaha)

Well bitcoin is around $4.6k now, who has their hands on the table trying to catch that falling knife?

I had a very crude target price of $2k but does anyone truly know what the bottom will be, I certainly don't. One so called expert said he was abandoning his plan to purchase a property and pile into Bitcoin at his target price of $4.8k. The same person is now selling bitcoin hoodies to make ends meet.

The US having a trade war with China will have more of an impact in the real world over the next year or two than Bitcoin imo. We should be worried about Macro Economic issues over fad currencies.

I'm not sure why you used the word legitimate ace but gold is clearly a terrible means of exchange. If it wasn't we wouldn't have needed paper money. It's heavy and indivisible.

If not for price volatility Bitcoin would be a far superior medium of exchange.

Hey Mango, yeah I'm trading crypto full time at the moment. Nice call on xrp btw, got in a few days ago. It might actually hold the number 2 spot for a period after this. I saw it briefly went over today again. Def more of a short term play for me but it's shown a lot of strength.

Gold is a legitimate medium of exchange, it’s functionality/practicality in a modern day society is questionable but so is bitcoins. If we were ever to return to the dark ages due to war or natural catastrophe then gold would again be the standard.

Price volatility will always be bitcoins achiles heel, until it loses this volatility, it cannot be considered by the business community as an efficient way of selling goods or services. For bitcoin to succeed, it needs global acceptance. That is something it doesn’t have from the man in the street right through to the large institutions. Whether this might change in the future, who knows.

What have you bought or sold for gold?

Gold is a store of value and not a medium of exchange. I think gold would be considered a commodity now? Medium of exchange is a characteristic of money and not a commodity.

In the event of societal collapse/dark ages scenario I do not particularly see the value in gold, I think food/water/weapons would be more valuable at this point but I understand your point. Its a bit of a pedantic argument from my side (on both accounts but im not sure if im just confused)

I did say that golds functionality as a medium of exchange in modern times is questionable, so practically as is the case with bitcoin it’s not possible to buy everyday staples. You mention Gold is a commodity, there is no doubt it is today but so is bitcoin. Bitcoin can’t function properly as a currency because there is a finite number of units and that to a degree stokes it’s volatitlty, Central banks can increase or decrease money supply to influence the value of a particular currency and/or a particular asset class as we have seen since the financial crisis. That has been a large factor behind the bull run on stocks and bonds over the last ten years. We are overdue a crash.

My hunch is crypto currencies have a long way to go before the bear market ends, a lot of coins as was the case with tech stocks in the 90s will simply disappear. Personally, I am going large on AI and Robotics. This is where the tech revolution is taking place imo, as opposed to what is still a relatively small unregulated space in the crypto world.

I'm not sure why you used the word legitimate ace but gold is clearly a terrible means of exchange. If it wasn't we wouldn't have needed paper money. It's heavy and indivisible.

If not for price volatility Bitcoin would be a far superior medium of exchange.

Hey Mango, yeah I'm trading crypto full time at the moment. Nice call on xrp btw, got in a few days ago. It might actually hold the number 2 spot for a period after this. I saw it briefly went over today again. Def more of a short term play for me but it's shown a lot of strength.

Gold is a legitimate medium of exchange, it’s functionality/practicality in a modern day society is questionable but so is bitcoins. If we were ever to return to the dark ages due to war or natural catastrophe then gold would again be the standard.

Price volatility will always be bitcoins achiles heel, until it loses this volatility, it cannot be considered by the business community as an efficient way of selling goods or services. For bitcoin to succeed, it needs global acceptance. That is something it doesn’t have from the man in the street right through to the large institutions. Whether this might change in the future, who knows.

What do you mean that institutions rule the roost?

Yes sub $100 eth is more likely than $10k. I would take that bet too (who said that, can't find it).

Bitcoin has indeed done very well each time it has been tested at the 6k level, it goes without saying the more often it is tested and holds the more it says about what people think it is worth. I can offer some input regarding this. I actually now work for a bitcoin broker in the Netherlands and last month was the biggest drop in seller % and largest increase in buyers. That trend means a lot given that the hype has gone away. The hype will return just like it has done in 6 or 7 cycles previously. I feel very very bullish for BTC in the next few months and am very excited to see what happens. Maybe someone wants to take a friendly bet that BTC will break 10k before Dec 31st with me? We probably keep testing support but I feel pretty good about the worst case scenario being hovering around 6-7k for a while.

I do agree with the state of a lot of coins not reaching their ATH's for a long time, I would also disagree and say that a lot of them will never reach their ATH again, this is of course easy feel this way during such a bear market. The future is very unknown and I have never felt confident about the value of a lot of alts in terms of their dollar value, however, I don't believe that makes their value redundant.

I mean the price of Bitcoin is being manipulated by the institutions in the futures markets. It’s in their interests for the price to go much lower than it is today, so they can buy bitcoin at some stage in the future from panicked sellers.

Bitcoin is being compared to Gold in regards to the proposed ETFs, but in my opinion a large part of the upswing in the gold price was to do with it being a safe haven asset during the financial crisis. Bitcoin is anything but a safe haven asset.

A little contradictory no? Wasn't gold supposed to have been manipulated over the years? I don't deny in the belief that has happened with bitcoin too, I just don't know enough about this sort of behaviour.

What makes gold such a safe haven asset? (I already know the answers, I just want to hear it from you)

What makes Bitcoin anything but a safe haven asset?

Gold is a safe haven asset because of its correlation with equities. It is also considered a legitimate medium of exchange, store of value and a hedge against inflation. All the things Bitcoin isn't

When people lose faith in the financial system as was the case in 2008, one of the first asset classes they turned to is precious metals. Having gold in a portfolio is a sensible hedge against market capitulation. It reduces volatility.

What do you mean that institutions rule the roost?

Yes sub $100 eth is more likely than $10k. I would take that bet too (who said that, can't find it).

Bitcoin has indeed done very well each time it has been tested at the 6k level, it goes without saying the more often it is tested and holds the more it says about what people think it is worth. I can offer some input regarding this. I actually now work for a bitcoin broker in the Netherlands and last month was the biggest drop in seller % and largest increase in buyers. That trend means a lot given that the hype has gone away. The hype will return just like it has done in 6 or 7 cycles previously. I feel very very bullish for BTC in the next few months and am very excited to see what happens. Maybe someone wants to take a friendly bet that BTC will break 10k before Dec 31st with me? We probably keep testing support but I feel pretty good about the worst case scenario being hovering around 6-7k for a while.

I do agree with the state of a lot of coins not reaching their ATH's for a long time, I would also disagree and say that a lot of them will never reach their ATH again, this is of course easy feel this way during such a bear market. The future is very unknown and I have never felt confident about the value of a lot of alts in terms of their dollar value, however, I don't believe that makes their value redundant.

I mean the price of Bitcoin is being manipulated by the institutions in the futures markets. It’s in their interests for the price to go much lower than it is today, so they can buy bitcoin at some stage in the future from panicked sellers.

Bitcoin is being compared to Gold in regards to the proposed ETFs, but in my opinion a large part of the upswing in the gold price was to do with it being a safe haven asset during the financial crisis. Bitcoin is anything but a safe haven asset.

When I first stumbled across BTC and begun to understand it better I was sure it was massively undervalued. After the ATH back in December and the flash crash I was also very sure it was undervalued. The way I change my stance now is that I agree with whatever the price is day to day since that is completely out of control or explanation, yet I believe the price in years to come will continue to increase (dramatically). I would say that if and when there is the next hype run where people start to get excited with how hardware and software functionality become more user friendly, people have better understanding of what BTC stands for as well as the standpoint of countries and states on BTC, that we will see exponential growth.

Buy volume through brokers is increasing a lot in the last month and sell volume has grinded to a halt, yet I still believe the price won't move much month by month for the rest of the year. The last crash is still etched strongly into the back of too many peoples minds and they will sell as we see strong price movements in the green.

The institutions rule the roost now, this bear market isn't over by a long shot. Ethereum sub $100 this year is more likely than the laughable $10k that was quoted earlier this year. Bitcoin in the circumstances is holding up quite well, but that $6k level is support that could be breached any time.

It will take years for any of these coins to hit their all-time highs again, just like during the tech bubble the tree shaking will carry on until only the legitimate case uses remain. More pain ahead IMO.

Ace I admire your persistence if nothing else

Why ask a question get a perfectly reasonable answer and for once possibly accept you may have got something wrong?

I have zero financially interest in bitcoin or any other crypto but the more you post the doom and gloom the more I want it to continue.

Lucky and others on this thread have admitted when they have slipped up possibly try it sometime

What has questioning the usage of a currency and getting a half-baked answer got to do with getting something wrong?

Does it really boil down to whether someone is right or wrong, or as it should be asking questions about the real world applications of cryptocurrencies. I do not think any sane person thinks that they are the solution to dealing with wealth inequality in the world, yet this comes up time and time again, just in the same way as people come out with how you can exist on Bitcoin today.

But you could, couldn't you, if you really wanted to?

It might be a different existence to your normal day to day, but you would still be existing.

Are you actually stating it is impossible?

I suppose if you like eating burgers every day yes. But tell me is there a coin that gets you the healthcare that you need to deal with high blood pressure and heart disease in this utopian world or do we rely on a centralised healthcare system?

Ace I admire your persistence if nothing else

Why ask a question get a perfectly reasonable answer and for once possibly accept you may have got something wrong?

I have zero financially interest in bitcoin or any other crypto but the more you post the doom and gloom the more I want it to continue.

Lucky and others on this thread have admitted when they have slipped up possibly try it sometime

What has questioning the usage of a currency and getting a half-baked answer got to do with getting something wrong?

Does it really boil down to whether someone is right or wrong, or as it should be asking questions about the real world applications of cryptocurrencies. I do not think any sane person thinks that they are the solution to dealing with wealth inequality in the world, yet this comes up time and time again, just in the same way as people come out with how you can exist on Bitcoin today.

"....Give me 100 bitcoins and I could exist in London for a year, no problem....."

If someone is dishing them out, I'll have a hundred too please.

I will give you £50 for them Tikay because sage buffet says they are worthless? Surely that's £50 more than you started with .

Bitcoin was an experiment that one guy thought up 9 years ago. It is only really in the last year or two that there has been a vast increase in adoption.

Saying that there needs to be bookshops across the globe accepting bitcoin for it to be successful is lame.

@Doobs I agree that banks seem cheap, quick and less easy but remember that you are living in the United Kingdom. We are blessed with governments and banking systems that haven't failed for quite a long time.

It is free and fast to send a bank transfer to someone in the same country as yourself, but beyond that bitcoin is much better. It is virtually free to make a transaction, it takes 10 minutes and it is much more secure.

I didn’t say that, I was referring to small businesses (my sisters being a valid example) which have a hard enough time dealing with things like excessive business rates , before they can even consider an acceptable alternative medium of exchange other than FIAT currency. If bitcoin is to succeed it needs these businesses to support and accept it.

You still haven’t come back to me with where I can eat, sleep, travel and pay my bills in London. Perhaps it’s because it’s not practically possible at this time.

Here you go Mr Gooner, took about thirty seconds to find this.

You can eat at Burger Bear
You can sleep at Clink261
You can travel with CheapAir
Not sure what bills you are looking to pay but Sheridans Lawyers will probably assist and you can pay them in Bitcoin

Not sure most residents in London want to sleep in short-term accommodation. I want a Landlord that accepts bitcoin, or a Mortgage company that will allow me to repay a loan with Bitcoin. The reality neither exists.

I don't want to exist on burgers every day, I wan't to buy every day staples from a supermarket.

Why do I want to fly from North to South London! Or from my house to work or the Emirates Stadium. I want to use public transport.

Why do I need to pay a lawyer when I don't have any legal disputes with anyone or have any plans to purchase something that requires legal advice?

The reality as I said is you cannot exist on Bitcoin in London, nor will you at any time in the foreseeable future.   

.

Bitcoin was an experiment that one guy thought up 9 years ago. It is only really in the last year or two that there has been a vast increase in adoption.

Saying that there needs to be bookshops across the globe accepting bitcoin for it to be successful is lame.

@Doobs I agree that banks seem cheap, quick and less easy but remember that you are living in the United Kingdom. We are blessed with governments and banking systems that haven't failed for quite a long time.

It is free and fast to send a bank transfer to someone in the same country as yourself, but beyond that bitcoin is much better. It is virtually free to make a transaction, it takes 10 minutes and it is much more secure.

I didn’t say that, I was referring to small businesses (my sisters being a valid example) which have a hard enough time dealing with things like excessive business rates , before they can even consider an acceptable alternative medium of exchange other than FIAT currency. If bitcoin is to succeed it needs these businesses to support and accept it.

You still haven’t come back to me with where I can eat, sleep, travel and pay my bills in London. Perhaps it’s because it’s not practically possible at this time.

...more merchants are accepting bitcoin, more people are paying in bitcoin and more people are being paid in bitcoin.

Like I said - is there a record of this anywhere?

I would have thought this record of transactions, of bitcoin being used to pay for things, is the best indicator of how successful it's actually doing (rather than it's speculative value).

Mostly my own experience. I do part time work for a bitcoin merchant company and an ico startup in Nijmegen, Netherlands and see it for myself. I get paid in bitcoin. At the Bitcoin merchant company they have 33 staff members of which when asked if they would like their salary partially paid in bitcoin- 33 obliged.

I will keep looking for more records of OTC transactions, but my neighbouring city Arnhem has taken the initiative on accepting bitcoin at several places such as cafes, restaurants, leisure centres, dentists, diy shops, bars, clothes shops, supermarkets, hotels, theaters. The list goes on.

Here is a map of the current places in Arnhem you can pay with Bitcoin.

Click to see full-size image.

I think what is impressive to me is that we have a network that was created with one of it's main function to transfer value to one another as a complete test just 9 years ago and yet here we are already. It was only a year ago that most people had ever heard of Bitcoin.

Using Arnhem as an example is lame imo. Pull off a map of London, and show how you can live day to day ie eat, travel and pay bills using bitcoin.

The answer is you can't. Bitcoin is still a niche currency, my sister owns a children's bookshop in Crouch End, she won't touch bitcoin with a bargepole because it gives her business no cashflow stability. She is exactly the sort of person who needs to adopt bitcoin, for it to succeed across the world.

No disrespect to your sister's bookshop, but suspect that you need amazon, apple, banks and supermarkets.  I don't take it for my business only, banks seem quick, cheaper and less risky than bitcoin to me.  Dare say that this bit of news makes no difference to the success of Bitcoin or whatever the next big thing is.

I see where you are coming from but Bitcoin and other currencies are supposed to be a threat to big business (banking, retailing etc). If they are to be successful with mainstream adoption they will have to start with a bottom-up approach, otherwise, all they are doing is lining the pockets of big corporations. Libertarians would be on the side of the independent bookshop versus the likes of Waterstones or Amazon, even though a lot of their principles are constantly contradicted when cryptocurrencies are concerned.

...more merchants are accepting bitcoin, more people are paying in bitcoin and more people are being paid in bitcoin.

Like I said - is there a record of this anywhere?

I would have thought this record of transactions, of bitcoin being used to pay for things, is the best indicator of how successful it's actually doing (rather than it's speculative value).

Mostly my own experience. I do part time work for a bitcoin merchant company and an ico startup in Nijmegen, Netherlands and see it for myself. I get paid in bitcoin. At the Bitcoin merchant company they have 33 staff members of which when asked if they would like their salary partially paid in bitcoin- 33 obliged.

I will keep looking for more records of OTC transactions, but my neighbouring city Arnhem has taken the initiative on accepting bitcoin at several places such as cafes, restaurants, leisure centres, dentists, diy shops, bars, clothes shops, supermarkets, hotels, theaters. The list goes on.

Here is a map of the current places in Arnhem you can pay with Bitcoin.

Click to see full-size image.

I think what is impressive to me is that we have a network that was created with one of it's main function to transfer value to one another as a complete test just 9 years ago and yet here we are already. It was only a year ago that most people had ever heard of Bitcoin.

Using Arnhem as an example is lame imo. Pull off a map of London, and show how you can live day to day ie eat, travel and pay bills using bitcoin.

The answer is you can't. Bitcoin is still a niche currency, my sister owns a children's bookshop in Crouch End, she won't touch bitcoin with a bargepole because it gives her business no cashflow stability. She is exactly the sort of person who needs to adopt bitcoin, for it to succeed across the world.