I'll pm RichardL to come and post on this one. His lines in these spots are pretty good.

Iirc he prob won't like checking turn vs any decent reg because if you bet the river it can never be a bluff.

spot on.

simplest bet bet bet i have ever seen. checking turn and betting full pot on river makes u a fish, unless its vs a fish. even then u shud bet bet and then bet pot on river.

Lead $50 snap his shove

lol i was thinking this too,  always worth it just cos if it works it makes me so happy

Is he really Greek?

If so practice game selection and don't play on his tables Alex.

 

Generally i think bet folding is underused alot by people, and check calling is overused.

Having said that, I think the river is a check/call, hoping he has some dumb float which is possible seen as u bet small on the flop.

Also i guess he cud have q9 or something and bet river for value. So in isolation I would check/call river, because every other option sucks worse

WHats wrong with betting the turn ? Check/calling you tell him your hand and get crushed so often i think. This is a style thing though i guess, i just love building big pots cos they are fun  Prob why i lose so much tho 

The sb opens into 3 players, you show massive strength raising, and then he raises back. thats huge strength.

Its a limped pot, its 4 way, and we have nowhere near the nuts.

He either has a straight (which always 3 bets flop), or he has a big big draw (like  , which doesnt always 3 bet the flop anyway)

raise/fold in position seems perfect. Win the max/lose the least most of the time.

I agree raising pre is surely better than limping, but i dont think limping is horrible

[quote { 88+, AsKs, AhQh, AsQs, AsJs, As8s, Ac7c, As7s, As6s, As5s, KJs+, Ks8s, Ks7s, Q9s+, Js8s, T8s+, AJo, KJo+, Q9o+, T8o+ }

some of these are really silly alex.  imo villain has str8 or big draw.  I don't think folding vs an unknown is a big mistake.

agreed. A7cc was a misclick.

u think villain doesnt raise pre w jj+, ak/aqs?

he limped pre in ep, he is super abnormal and could have anything.

you are misreading the hand. the villain in this hand is the sb. the ep limper folded

limping is not gr8, iso that monkey.

raise folding is horrible imo.

standard fispump allin. only 100bb deep with the effective nuts on a super wet board.

limped pot you think he is 3 betting anything other than a str8 here? seems very very unlikely to me

Raise/folding you win the maximum when you are ahead, and make all draws pay, thus often winning a big pot. When beat its pretty obvious, as he doesnt 3 bet a worse 2 pair on this board in a LIMPED pot.

You should stack off super super tight for 100bb in a limped pot, otherwise its just spew.

All this is ofcourse providing the guy who 3 bet isnt a fish who has no idea.

Agree raising pre is better, limping isnt a mistake though really, esp is blinds are aggro

This is great as long as he never 3bets a draw

Which i doubt he would do in a limped pot

limping is not gr8, iso that monkey.

raise folding is horrible imo.

standard fispump allin. only 100bb deep with the effective nuts on a super wet board.

limped pot you think he is 3 betting anything other than a str8 here? seems very very unlikely to me

Raise/folding you win the maximum when you are ahead, and make all draws pay, thus often winning a big pot. When beat its pretty obvious, as he doesnt 3 bet a worse 2 pair on this board in a LIMPED pot.

You should stack off super super tight for 100bb in a limped pot, otherwise its just spew.

All this is ofcourse providing the guy who 3 bet isnt a fish who has no idea.

Agree raising pre is better, limping isnt a mistake though really, esp is blinds are aggro

limping is ok.

raise for value on flop, then fold when he 3 bets

easy

wp imo

[Yeah, i wanted to, but bitter experience has taught me they are never bluffing when a fish raises you on the river]

Villain is a fish, 26/14/2 or something. He got stacked a moment ago, timebank calling with the second nutflush on the river, so i think we can assume he is weaktight. He has played me slightly odd all night, with some unusual stuff. He stacked me on another table earlier slowplaying 101010 on 1084ss9s4h and check calling all my barrels. He views me as out of line, chatty idiot.


 His line is kinda odd as there aint that many diamonds in his coldcalling range, plus that he then doesnt double barrel the turn with. Sets and 2 pair would normally bet the turn from this player type for protection and his river raise looks a 5hit load like a jack but then i doubt he bets the flop with a jack. Im confused.

***** Betfair Poker Hand History for Game 543061682 *****
NL $1/$2 Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, July 01, 23:02:29 GMT 2009
Table Oxygen 86 6-max (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of active players : 6
Seat 1: JammyJenny ( $246.05 )
Seat 2: kingbil ( $175 )
Seat 3: cemasa ( $55.90 )
Seat 4: TNico ( $105.95 )
Seat 5: dska ( $71 )
Seat 6: martha1989 ( $461.06 )
JammyJenny posts small blind [$1]
kingbil posts big blind [$2]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to JammyJenny [ , ]
cemasa calls [$2]
TNico folds
dska calls [$2]
martha1989 folds
JammyJenny raises to [$10]
kingbil calls [$8]
cemasa folds
dska calls [$8]
** Dealing Flop ** [ , , ]
JammyJenny checks
kingbil bets [$21]
dska folds
JammyJenny calls [$21]
** Dealing Turn ** [ ]
JammyJenny checks
kingbil checks
** Dealing River ** [ ]
JammyJenny bets [$55.50]
kingbil raises to [$120.25]

Why check call this flop?

Didnt fancy cbetting 3way and bloating it oop, fancy i have the best hand a fair chunk of the time and worse will bet (inc bad shorty), worse hands struggle to call me if i cbet this 3way.

Why did you bet the river?

I am guessing the answer to that question would determine whether this is a call or not, no?

For value, once it goes check/check and i hit gin i have to bet as i expect a weak passive to check back too many weak top pairs

I snap here as played.

Yeah, i wanted to, but bitter experience has taught me they are never bluffing when a fish raises you on the river

I don't understand your pre and post flop line though. Raise pre from the SB and then check call the flop when you hit it? (or can represent hitting it anyways)
Why not check raise or lead out on the flop? Or were you planning on checkraising a blank turn?

Pre was borderline spew and not standard, had decided to log a loco session. Check call flop is unusual, but with 2 weak passives its hard for me to get called by worse if i bet and i have a decent hand remember. Betting is bad as a bluff/thin value because when i cbet this pot 3way my range is strengthened, which means villains calling range is stronger too (so i cant be betting for thin value).  If i am called to win the pot i will have to try and move a fish off weak top pair (when 1 fish only has $70) on the turn, which is spew. Short of it is, i cant play every hand i get like its the nuts, checkraising marginal hands that have GOOD SHOWDOWN STRENGTH is not optimal imo.

I think you should bet/fold the flop, or alternatively check/flop. Pretty unlikely anyone is going to take a stab at this flop, espicially fish/bad regs.

I know that betting or raising for info is generally seen as retarded logic, but in this case I think it is a valid reason for leading the flop

Also if you bet and J/Q comes then your hand is diguised and you can fire again and get paid. Whereas if you check call, and then jack or q comes then you struggle to win the maximum ever

You give away the strength of your hand check/calling, and get value towned to death, even by 26/14 donks

You give him chance to suck out for free

You cant put him on a range by check calling

Jumbled thoughts, but all valid, collectively making check calling bad here i think, even though i see alot of people do it

Villain is a fish, 26/14/2 or something. He got stacked a moment ago, timebank calling with the second nutflush on the river, so i think we can assume he is weaktight. He has played me slightly odd all night, with some unusual stuff. He stacked me on another table earlier slowplaying 101010 on 1084ss9s4h and check calling all my barrels. He views me as out of line, chatty idiot.


 His line is kinda odd as there aint that many diamonds in his coldcalling range, plus that he then doesnt double barrel the turn with. Sets and 2 pair would normally bet the turn from this player type for protection and his river raise looks a 5hit load like a jack but then i doubt he bets the flop with a jack. Im confused.

***** Betfair Poker Hand History for Game 543061682 *****
NL $1/$2 Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, July 01, 23:02:29 GMT 2009
Table Oxygen 86 6-max (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of active players : 6
Seat 1: JammyJenny ( $246.05 )
Seat 2: kingbil ( $175 )
Seat 3: cemasa ( $55.90 )
Seat 4: TNico ( $105.95 )
Seat 5: dska ( $71 )
Seat 6: martha1989 ( $461.06 )
JammyJenny posts small blind [$1]
kingbil posts big blind [$2]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to JammyJenny [ , ]
cemasa calls [$2]
TNico folds
dska calls [$2]
martha1989 folds
JammyJenny raises to [$10]
kingbil calls [$8]
cemasa folds
dska calls [$8]
** Dealing Flop ** [ , , ]
JammyJenny checks
kingbil bets [$21]
dska folds
JammyJenny calls [$21]
** Dealing Turn ** [ ]
JammyJenny checks
kingbil checks
** Dealing River ** [ ]
JammyJenny bets [$55.50]
kingbil raises to [$120.25]

Why check call this flop?

The word 'professional' is the most misused word we use in the game, some people make plenty of money, their only income in fact, from poker but are not really 'professional' at all. To me a 'professional' poker player will be someone who carefully picks what games they play and calculates what their edge is in them, manages their travel expenses well, conduct themselves like a gent at the tables win lose or draw and then studies and reviews the hands they played after the tournament, win lose or draw.

But most 'pros' turn up to whatever game is on that weekend, splash their cash around, moan about bad beats, jump into the first cash game they can find when they bust out (making a quick trip to the bar or the roulette table on their way) and find reasons to explain why they were 'right' to have gone out of the tournament the way they did rather than soul search at what lessons could be learnt.

Dont get me wrong, very talented players many of them and will do very well, just I haven't met that many professional players who genuinely appear to treat the game like a day in the office.

Others are just unemployed but do ok at poker at the moment.

This is a great post imo.

And this sort of attitude is basically why alot of players will tend to have nothing to show for their undoubted technical poker skills.

I rate a poker player on the basis of all the things mentioned above, and if someone is really talented, but is always flat broke because they lack self control and play games they cant beat, then they are fish - just like the guy who just learnt the game and donks off his £50 a week that he has spare from his regular job.

Sadly, i feel the reason alot of profesionals act in an unproffesional manner by playing games they cant afford/beat, and splashing the cash when they travel to live tournaments (when they could be alot more sensible and actually turn a far higher profit for the trip by travelling in a smarter way, or taking a cheaper hotel room) is because they need to protect their image. They need everyone to see this ultra successful poker player. It is really pathetic, and personally i dont care if people think i am broke or a pussy, if i dont feel comfortable playing a certain game then i wont do it. If i go to a hotel, i will try and get a cheap deal to increase the profitabilty of the trip, regardless of whether another poker player is in the penthouse suite getting respect from his fellow players

Bit of a jumbled ramble but i am tired so forgive me

This is also an impressive post from someone who has made enough from poker to own the hotel and the penthouse suite.

lol, one day i hope. But alas, that day is along way off. Its probably more likely that i will be sleeping rough in the doorway of the hotel begging from the guy in the penthouse suite in a few years

The word 'professional' is the most misused word we use in the game, some people make plenty of money, their only income in fact, from poker but are not really 'professional' at all. To me a 'professional' poker player will be someone who carefully picks what games they play and calculates what their edge is in them, manages their travel expenses well, conduct themselves like a gent at the tables win lose or draw and then studies and reviews the hands they played after the tournament, win lose or draw.

But most 'pros' turn up to whatever game is on that weekend, splash their cash around, moan about bad beats, jump into the first cash game they can find when they bust out (making a quick trip to the bar or the roulette table on their way) and find reasons to explain why they were 'right' to have gone out of the tournament the way they did rather than soul search at what lessons could be learnt.

Dont get me wrong, very talented players many of them and will do very well, just I haven't met that many professional players who genuinely appear to treat the game like a day in the office.

Others are just unemployed but do ok at poker at the moment.

This is a great post imo.

And this sort of attitude is basically why alot of players will tend to have nothing to show for their undoubted technical poker skills.

I rate a poker player on the basis of all the things mentioned above, and if someone is really talented, but is always flat broke because they lack self control and play games they cant beat, then they are fish - just like the guy who just learnt the game and donks off his £50 a week that he has spare from his regular job.

Sadly, i feel the reason alot of profesionals act in an unproffesional manner by playing games they cant afford/beat, and splashing the cash when they travel to live tournaments (when they could be alot more sensible and actually turn a far higher profit for the trip by travelling in a smarter way, or taking a cheaper hotel room) is because they need to protect their image. They need everyone to see this ultra successful poker player. It is really pathetic, and personally i dont care if people think i am broke or a pussy, if i dont feel comfortable playing a certain game then i wont do it. If i go to a hotel, i will try and get a cheap deal to increase the profitabilty of the trip, regardless of whether another poker player is in the penthouse suite getting respect from his fellow players

Bit of a jumbled ramble but i am tired so forgive me

Watching the players arrive at Walsall this weekend I  wondered at the mentality of people turning up for 'work', paying for the privilge and grinding it out for hours on end with no guarantee of a pay day. Ask your postman to turn up for work without pay and see what happens.

The profession of poker is shared with amateurs who also hold down a day job and in their spare time roll up to pit their skill against the pro's.

What other professions do this?  You can't go to the dentist and get treated by the amateur who just works weekends, but has read a book and seen some dentistry on tv and thinks he might be quite good at it. I can only think of one mix between pros and amateurs; non league football vs the league teams. Anyone got other examples?

Who has the advantage? The pro or amateur? The amateur because the outcome isn't so much life and death just because they have a pay day at the end of the week, or the pro because he has had sleep and hasn't fitted in this tournament between other full time work and taking the kids to school?

As I watched the old school players playing for their tournament life I realised this is all they know, being gamblers they accept the uncertain payday and lifestyle without question, they haven't gone out and got a 'job' to help ends meet,they just keep grinding it out and keep hoping the cards will fall favourably. Every day, day after day, always uncertain. Some of them for over fourty or fifty years.

Is it resilience or madness?

Good post, I would say the points you raised are why you should always wait untill you are financially secure for an extended peroid of time before going 'Pro' (i.e. have 6-12 months living expenses away from poker).

It also helps relieve pressure to have some sort of back up plan, whether that be an effective degree, some sort of training, or anything else which would help you get a decent job.

whats his 3 bet %? And is he on the way up or down stack-wise (i.e. did he used to have 400 bb?) And is he a regular donk who is often seen on the games? How many hands do you have on him? How often have you been 3 betting, espicially in this position? Is he pissed off at you - maybe you bluffed him in a few hands?

Think these reads all have a bearing on whether to call or not.

It is a tough hand, and a situation that rarely comes up. I know some donks i would fold KK to here, but far more who i would just call against

Ok, villain is a reg TAG, decent, runs at 22/18/3. I have a little history with him, this session i just overbet a river which got through about 10 hands before this.

On the river, is his range weighted towards draws or marginal made hands? Also, what is the best course of action for getting maximum value from the combined range of said hands?

***** Betfair Poker Hand History for Game 531822421 *****
NL $1/$2 Texas Hold'em - Friday, June 05, 22:34:00 GMT 2009
Table Oxygen 09 6-max (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of active players : 5
Seat 1: Marino4ka ( $186 )
Seat 2: DrAntox ( $195.05 )
Seat 3: JammyJenny ( $200 )
Seat 4: AstonOE ( $217.20 )
Seat 5: Sevlow ( $160.47 )
Seat 6: Mahnzis ( $200 )
DrAntox posts small blind [$1]
JammyJenny posts big blind [$2]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to JammyJenny [ Ah, ]
AstonOE folds
Sevlow folds
Marino4ka raises to [$7]
DrAntox folds
JammyJenny calls [$5]
** Dealing Flop ** [ , , ]
JammyJenny checks
Marino4ka checks
** Dealing Turn ** [ ]
JammyJenny checks
Marino4ka bets [$11.25]
JammyJenny raises to [$28]
Marino4ka calls [$16.75]
** Dealing River ** [ ]

I dont mean to be rude, but i must say that in my estimation this hand is butchered at about every possible point.

I really dont think there can be any justification being the last to act and just calling with aces pre (out of position too). You literally struggle to ever win a big pot with your aces this way. And in fact will end up losing a big pot far more often than you end up winning a big pot.

As played, i can see why you go for the flop check raise. Once he checks back, you should just bet quite big (3/4 pot ish) on the turn and the river. Once he checks behind this board it is unlikely he has total air - Put yourself in his position, if he has total air on the flop then this is a perfect flop for the pre flop raiser to bet at and take the pot down. So, once he checks i think its safe to assume he has some sort of weak made hand, as you suggest. So now i think you get paid betting decent sizes on the turn and river (he will call as long as the river doesnt scare him too much).

Going for the turn check raise seems to be really bad to me, and your bet size is too small to ever be taken by him as a flush or straight draw (with flush or straight draw you would be more inclined to go for either a decent sized lead out, a big check raise to maximise your fold equity).

On river i would just fire out a bet of about 2/3- 3/4 pot, with the hope he has a brain freeze and calls.

In conclusion, I dont think you need to over complicate this hand to the extent you did. The most unusual and creative methods of play often are not even close to the most profitable, and are mostly not profitable at all. It just makes no sense to ever flat aces here pre.

I am aware everyone misplays hands, and I am also aware that you are probably a very good player. However, in my opinion this hand is losing poker at every turn.

Disclaimer: I am terrible at poker and dont know what i am talking about, so if you disagree with what i have typed here then there is a significant chance that i am just plain wrong