top 2 facing 3bet

[AlexMartin]

[quote { 88+, AsKs, AhQh, AsQs, AsJs, As8s, Ac7c, As7s, As6s, As5s, KJs+, Ks8s, Ks7s, Q9s+, Js8s, T8s+, AJo, KJo+, Q9o+, T8o+ }

some of these are really silly alex.  imo villain has str8 or big draw.  I don't think folding vs an unknown is a big mistake.

agreed. A7cc was a misclick.

[doubleup]

[quote { 88+, AsKs, AhQh, AsQs, AsJs, As8s, Ac7c, As7s, As6s, As5s, KJs+, Ks8s, Ks7s, Q9s+, Js8s, T8s+, AJo, KJo+, Q9o+, T8o+ }

some of these are really silly alex.  imo villain has str8 or big draw.  I don't think folding vs an unknown is a big mistake.

agreed. A7cc was a misclick.

u think villain doesnt raise pre w jj+, ak/aqs?

[AlexMartin]

[quote { 88+, AsKs, AhQh, AsQs, AsJs, As8s, Ac7c, As7s, As6s, As5s, KJs+, Ks8s, Ks7s, Q9s+, Js8s, T8s+, AJo, KJo+, Q9o+, T8o+ }

some of these are really silly alex.  imo villain has str8 or big draw.  I don't think folding vs an unknown is a big mistake.

agreed. A7cc was a misclick.

u think villain doesnt raise pre w jj+, ak/aqs?

he limped pre in ep, he is super abnormal and could have anything.

[doubleup]

he limped pre in ep, 

[  ]    [ x ]

[RichardL]

limping is not gr8, iso that monkey.

raise folding is horrible imo.

standard fispump allin. only 100bb deep with the effective nuts on a super wet board.

limped pot you think he is 3 betting anything other than a str8 here? seems very very unlikely to me

Raise/folding you win the maximum when you are ahead, and make all draws pay, thus often winning a big pot. When beat its pretty obvious, as he doesnt 3 bet a worse 2 pair on this board in a LIMPED pot.

You should stack off super super tight for 100bb in a limped pot, otherwise its just spew.

All this is ofcourse providing the guy who 3 bet isnt a fish who has no idea.

Agree raising pre is better, limping isnt a mistake though really, esp is blinds are aggro

This is great as long as he never 3bets a draw

Which i doubt he would do in a limped pot

[RichardL]

[quote { 88+, AsKs, AhQh, AsQs, AsJs, As8s, Ac7c, As7s, As6s, As5s, KJs+, Ks8s, Ks7s, Q9s+, Js8s, T8s+, AJo, KJo+, Q9o+, T8o+ }

some of these are really silly alex.  imo villain has str8 or big draw.  I don't think folding vs an unknown is a big mistake.

agreed. A7cc was a misclick.

u think villain doesnt raise pre w jj+, ak/aqs?

he limped pre in ep, he is super abnormal and could have anything.

you are misreading the hand. the villain in this hand is the sb. the ep limper folded

[RichardL]

The sb opens into 3 players, you show massive strength raising, and then he raises back. thats huge strength.

Its a limped pot, its 4 way, and we have nowhere near the nuts.

He either has a straight (which always 3 bets flop), or he has a big big draw (like  , which doesnt always 3 bet the flop anyway)

raise/fold in position seems perfect. Win the max/lose the least most of the time.

I agree raising pre is surely better than limping, but i dont think limping is horrible

[daviebhoy]

He either has us crushed or is on a draw. There are only 2 likely hands beating us just now (78,Q8) though. The sets raise pre and KQ is getting raised by most players. Still possible but less likely.

There are absolutely loads of draws. And we have 4 outs against the majority of his range.

As we are way more likely to be up against a draw I think this is a shove unless he is a nit and we know he doesn't semi-bluff with 89o and the like.

[doubleup]

If really pushed I might go for:

Board:
Dead: 

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    43.542%     40.41%    03.13%             45610         3531.00   { JdTc }
Hand 1:    56.458%     53.33%    03.13%             60188         3531.00   { JJ-88, AJs, As8s, As7s, KQs, KsJs, Q8s+, J9s+, T9s, 87s, AJo, KQo, Q8o+, J9o+, T9o, 87o }



but I dont think he 3 bets all of these.  We are about breakeven against this range, so I can't see that folding is bad.

[Royal Flush]

raise/fold in position seems perfect. Win the max/lose the least most of the time.

Surely calling is the best, what hand calls our 2 bet?

[AlexMartin]

[quote { 88+, AsKs, AhQh, AsQs, AsJs, As8s, Ac7c, As7s, As6s, As5s, KJs+, Ks8s, Ks7s, Q9s+, Js8s, T8s+, AJo, KJo+, Q9o+, T8o+ }

some of these are really silly alex.  imo villain has str8 or big draw.  I don't think folding vs an unknown is a big mistake.

agreed. A7cc was a misclick.

u think villain doesnt raise pre w jj+, ak/aqs?

he limped pre in ep, he is super abnormal and could have anything.

you are misreading the hand. the villain in this hand is the sb. the ep limper folded

aha k, tougher.

[Numpty Dumpty]

alrighty mikey,

tough one. i think pre flop is good to limp occasionally, as long as you do raise in this spot more often.

we have talked about this kind of spot on the flop before, and i know we do differ here. i like to flat and raise a blank turn. as others have said its just too tough if you raise and he 3bets. obviously there are a lot of turns you dont want to see, but i guess thats the big downside of flatting

as played, i would fold, but i am a nit and i would guess you are more likely to make the hero-shove here?

unlucky yesterday mate, gutted to see the sudden busto.

back in notts on sunday, midday or so, you still about? gotta move all my stuff to the new house so will be about anyway

[daviebhoy]

Hand 1:    56.458%     53.33%    03.13%             60188         3531.00   { JJ-88, AJs, As8s, As7s, KQs, KsJs, Q8s+, J9s+, T9s, 87s, AJo, KQo, Q8o+, J9o+, T9o, 87o }

but I dont think he 3 bets all of these.  We are about breakeven against this range, so I can't see that folding is bad.

You don't think he raises Qxss or 8xss ? Also, it is very unlikely he has a AKss,AQss,AJss or a set so I don't believe this is accurate. I have came round to the idea that calling is best here.

[doubleup]

Hand 1:    56.458%     53.33%    03.13%             60188         3531.00   { JJ-88, AJs, As8s, As7s, KQs, KsJs, Q8s+, J9s+, T9s, 87s, AJo, KQo, Q8o+, J9o+, T9o, 87o }

but I dont think he 3 bets all of these.  We are about breakeven against this range, so I can't see that folding is bad.

You don't think he raises Qxss or 8xss ? Also, it is very unlikely he has a AKss,AQss,AJss or a set so I don't believe this is accurate. I have came round to the idea that calling is best here.

where are ak and aq in the range i quoted? 

You can argue about the range and drop some hands and add in others, but this is never going to be a great spot.

[daviebhoy]

You can argue about the range and drop some hands and add in others, but this is never going to be a great spot.

Its clearly not the greatest of spots. The question is whether or not folding here is a mistake. To accurately answer we really need to know more about villain but against an unknown I'd say it probably was as he is drawing here way more than he has flopped a straight.