Integrity in Horse-Racing

[TightEnd]

We probably all saw the news the other day...Kieran Fallon etc etc

Here are some salient points about the issue:

Kieren Fallon has been suspended by the Horseracing Regulatory Authority from all racing in Britain after being charged with conspiracy to defraud.

The ex-champion jockey is one of eight people charged by City of London Police over race-fixing allegations.

The HRA has also suspended fellow jockeys Fergal Lynch and Darren Williams, who face the same charge along with trainer Alan Berry.

The jockeys face specially arranged HRA appeal hearings on Friday.

All those charged by police have been bailed and are due to appear in court on 17 July. They deny any wrongdoing.

Fallon is licensed as a jockey in Ireland, and the Irish Turf Club has confirmed he will be able to continue riding there.

Irish Turf Club chief executive Denis Egan said: "As far as we are concerned, Fallon is innocent until proven guilty."

City of London Police confirmed that 17 of the 28 people who answered bail on Monday have been released and are no longer involved in the case.

The investigation, which began in September 2004, has examined allegations of conspiracy to defraud involving more than 80 races over two years.

Detective Chief Superintendent Steve Wilmott of City of London Police said the investigation - the largest of its type undertaken by the force - had started when Betfair approached the Jockey Club.

In early 2004, Betfair, an internet betting exchange, brought to the attention of the Jockey Club a number of what they considered to be irregular betting patterns.

"The security department of the Jockey Club undertook an investigation and came to the conclusion that there was potential criminality that could undermine the integrity of horse racing."



My questions are these

a) Is this widespread in racing these days? When YOU place a bet on a random horse race, do you have confidence that the sport is clean/your animal/jockey is trying?

b) Betfair. I accept it is a boon for punters and market liquidity. However the major bookies (vested interest clearly) argue that the propensity for corruption is increased by the ability of "connected persons" to lay horses. Set against this the exchanges argue that the transparency of the process makes it easier to detect untoward patterns and regulation is high. Where do you stand on this?

c) All gambling activities whether it be poker or racing or dogs etc etc have their share of rogues, chancers, criminals etc. Is it any different from years past?

d) In all my comments I assume that the individuals involved are innocent until proven otherwise. However do stories like this, on the "no smoke without fire" principle do long term damage to UK horseracing?

[Gryff]

I would never ever bet on a UK horse race, I just don't believe the setup is clean.

Its also hard to find good +EV bets, picking winners is fine but its still losing you money if you're not getting the right odds.

[TightEnd]

Its also hard to find good +EV bets, picking winners is fine but its still losing you money if you're not getting the right odds.

you mean because you are betting into a 108-120% overround on the book?

[Graham C]

Do I have confidence that the sports I'm betting on are clean?  Not sure to be honest but I don't think it makes that much difference to me.  Sure I may have backed a genuine winner that's been held up on purpose but then I'm just as likely to back the horse that goes on to win - I generally don't know enough about what I'm betting on to make a descission based on facts and figures. It'd be good to know it was clean and if I've lost at least I've lost fair and square. I think a trainer combined with the jockey and owner (in horses) must know if his horse is good enough to win a race or not though and there must be conversations between camps on who's doing what and maybe if I let your horse win this race, then you let me win this next one or lets just bung lots of cash on this one?  It must happen.

There was an instance a couple of years ago when a horse died  before a race and those in the know layed it at the exchanges and picked up a few quid (may have been antepost betting, I can't remember the details).  There's loads of instances, the biggie at the moment is the Italian leagues problems.

I'd like to be privvy to some inside info sometimes though

[smithy69]

I'LL LET YOU INTO SOME SECRETS IF YA INTERESTED LADS!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have socialised with a few jockeys lately (last couple of years) including having 1 round my house, and playing cricket with 2 others. The jockeys know where there horse will finish the day before. I have been told to lay and back horses a few days before well in the knowledge that these comments are said truthfully.

and one of these is 1 of the guys who has been charged.

I have stopped betting on Horses in any great numbers, unless I have bumped into one of the jocks.

[smithy69]

and if anyone wants to know who they are just pm me!!!!!!!

[Royal Flush]

b) Betfair. I accept it is a boon for punters and market liquidity. However the major bookies (vested interest clearly) argue that the propensity for corruption is increased by the ability of "connected persons" to lay horses. Set against this the exchanges argue that the transparency of the process makes it easier to detect untoward patterns and regulation is high. Where do you stand on this?

It just means the bookies are not the only ones doing it these days

[Royal Flush]

Oh and as for the sport, myself ginger and junglecat went to Brighton races yesterday, i couldn't care if it was rigged, we had plenty of drink and i managed to pick 6 losers......but it was great fun!!

[mjrevie]

My questions are these

a) Is this widespread in racing these days? When YOU place a bet on a random horse race, do you have confidence that the sport is clean/your animal/jockey is trying?

b) Betfair. I accept it is a boon for punters and market liquidity. However the major bookies (vested interest clearly) argue that the propensity for corruption is increased by the ability of "connected persons" to lay horses. Set against this the exchanges argue that the transparency of the process makes it easier to detect untoward patterns and regulation is high. Where do you stand on this?

c) All gambling activities whether it be poker or racing or dogs etc etc have their share of rogues, chancers, criminals etc. Is it any different from years past?

d) In all my comments I assume that the individuals involved are innocent until proven otherwise. However do stories like this, on the "no smoke without fire" principle do long term damage to UK horseracing?

Quick answers

a) No, I wouldnt bet on a random horse race or dog race. Just dont trust it.

b) I think betfair has possibly made it more transparent, especially if there are working closely with the police (or whoever deals with this sort of thing).

c) Probably not any different, just that there is so much more information out there. Forums like this and comments by Smithy mean that people just know more things nowadays, more gossip which fuels these sort of discussions.

d) I cant see how its not doing damage to it. Especially to the casual punter who i gather (and i have no evidence for this, just my opinion) must make up a sizeable amount of the betting public.

[bolt pp]

a)  Yes!!! i have unequivocal confidence that when I'm backing a horse its a tryer, i have to or how can i have a bet? when you play cards can you be 100% sure in a live game that the dealers not at it or that theres not some form of collusion occurring at the table?

you have to exert a certain amount of trust, perhaps not as much as needed to place a bet on a horse in light of these accusations but the principal is the same, its a situation where your dealing with the individual, and where theres money theres the inextricable criminal element waiting/trying to steal or defraud as much of it as possible.

Horseracing has become so mainstream that i would have thought the criminal element working within the industry would have decreased but for the implementation of betfairs software that allows the individual to "lay" a singular horse and in effect become the bookmaker.

the opportunity this affords the criminally minded is vast yet the betting patterns are monitored in such a way that i believe betfair are doing their best to extirpate the potential for criminality and uphold the articles of the gaming act.

b)Betfair is detracting from the on course bookmakers profit. It decreases their mark up and gives them significant cause to moan about all aspects of the software primarily because of the financial ramifications is has for them.
I think that the betfair software is revolutionary for the gaming industry, its a natural progression of gambling that coincides with the expansion of the internet.
the bookmakers want to moan because its taking money out of there pockets but they erroneously use the suspicious betting patterns angle as a platform on which to assuage their inherent indignation at this inexorable modern day gaming rival.

c) I have intricate knowledge of the extent to which greyhound racing was/is crooked.
I mean everyones at it in that game and whats more everyone within the game knows it.
The bookmakers, trainers, owners, kennel lads, track staff, EVERYONE!!!
I used to own 2 low class greyhounds with a pal of mine at the stow in the late 90s.
they were no good but i was in the game to get the info, find out about which dogs were not running well and which went, and i did!! the games still like that and there doesn't seem to be anyone that wants to stop it so with precarious autonomy they just crack on, and probably will continue to do so for some time!!

d)nothing, absolutely nothing.
Irrespective of the outcome, punters are punters, they love the horses, they're addicted, i was in the betting shop when the 9/11 atrocities happend and the news was coming through and do you know what happend? NOTHING, knowbody cared, it could be the apocalypse outside but when your in the betting shop and doing you wages, winning a few hundred quid, waiting for the last one in a four fold to come up, you couldn't care less whats going on out side.
The punters will always be there, they love the game too much!!!

The gaming industry on the whole is one big hypocrisy, bit of a cliche i know but it is.
The bookmakers are your best Friends but they wont give you the cab fare home when you do your dough.
When the bookmakes scouts find out about a horse/dog with a niggling injury or a slight cough do they tell the punters?  NO WAY!!!!!!!! they take your dough with a smile. when the punters get an edge though its called cheating!!

Fallons no mug and it is correct that he is Innocent until proven guilty.
If he is guilty of conspiring to fix and carrying out the act of fixing races then I'd imagine he'd endeavour to accomplish this task with a little more discretion than getting a hose 15 lenghs clear on the bridle then easing down to get nipped on the line.
there are ways of getting a horse beat and thats just not one of them, you keep the horse at the back, find it some trouble, you give it an easier time than you appear to be!!!

I think that whatever the findings in this case people will postulate of the future of racing, disparage all those involved, convey opinions of unimaginable exasperation and indignation with one hand, whilst keeping the other hand free to write down todays eachway treble at haydock
 

[bolt pp]

Its also hard to find good +EV bets, picking winners is fine but its still losing you money if you're not getting the right odds.

you mean because you are betting into a 108-120% overround on the book?

In places like the far east where gambling is outlawed they bet to something like 350%, they have about 3 hoses in a race that are odds on and the rag of the field is a 2/1 shot!!!!
 
I kid you not
 
As far as the percentages to which the bookmakers bet we have it pretty good over here, except for afternoon bags where you can regularly find races being priced up to markets in excess of 150%    gggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

[baldballs1]

what really pisses me off is when its a 16 runner handicap and they pull 1 out im sure the bookies pay the trainer to a horse what has no chance,

spread betting is what i do if u pick 4 horses at bigish odds  theres a chance u might get 1 ov them trying ,i love racing but they are spoiling it ,but i also prefer over the sticks to the flat

[GlasgowBandit]

I have no doubt that horse racing is fixed, that said it doesn't stop me punting.  I personally try and stay ahead of the fixers by continuously looking for the long priced horses from stables that I reckon try for the biggest part of the time.  I follow a set process of not backing particular horses, trainers and jockeys at certain distances or in certain races.  I think it helps if you can read form and judge for yourself if a orse was trying the time before, I think its important to be able to calculate the distances and the times horses have done previously.  All that said, you may think you have found the ebst bet sicne sliced bread but f the jockey ain't trying then your never going to win.

I also hate it when in a 16 runner handicap once always seems to get pulled out, I think we should have a system like they have in Ireland and have reserves.  Further I think if a bookie advertises 1/4 the odds first 4 then they should be foreced to pay that even if one is pulled out, many punters myself included back horses e/w because there are certain orses that are not going tow in but you can almost guarantee a place for at big odds.