river spot, call or fold?

[ZZZZZZZROPE]

 i have mid position in the $100 25k double stack
blinds 30-60, 3500 stack

1 limper behind, i pop to 220, 2 callers behind and limper calls, so pot is now 970

flop is     

the original caller raises to 240 on flop, i call , other 2 drop out!

turn is          he bets 600, i call

river is  making me trip kings, he bets allin 3550 putting my remaining 2550 chips all in if i call.

 do you call on the river,or do you raise the flop to see where you stand etc etc, how would you play this from the flop?and in that position do you call the river bet there?

[AlexMartin]

yuuuuuuuk. Genuinely tough spot versus a good opponent. His bet sizes are perfect for a flopped flush or set that wants to get paid. Looks a lot like 55/88/flush, and even KQ just took you over.

What are you beating? Not many 3barrel smash this with bare or KJ.

Given all this info, i would fold this a bunch.

[PocketLady]

I'm definitely raising either the flop bet or the turn to see where I stand.  As all that's happened is you calling here, you aren't gaining anymore information at all.  He could be calling preflop with KQ, KJ, 88, 55 or even a smaller suited ace.  Pretty much the only hand you are beating is KJ and are losing to so many others.  The all in bet on the river is a big bet so he could be hoping that you have the king/flush and read him for a bluff and call, when in fact he has just housed-up.  Or he could read you for AK and realise you have made trips when he already has the flush.  Either way I fold here too I think.  Chances are that only a bad player is making this move with a worse hand.

[Longy]

Calling flop and turn are fine imo. By raising at any point we are folding most worse hands and getting called/raised by better hands, im not interested information, im interested in maximising my value.

River is a nasty spot, readless i pitch it with a heavy heart. Calling really is not awful though.

[PocketLady]

But surely by not raising by the time the river comes you have no idea where you are at all, and no idea whether to call or fold.  If the villan has a worse hand he will probably fold to a reraise on the flop or turn.  If he does have something like the bare ace, then by raising you are giving him a chance to fold his draw, and not make a bluff on the river which puts the OP in a tricky situation.  And if he reraises you you can assume he has a set or a made flush already, and pass.  Just my opinion.

[AlexMartin]

Im gonna bump this, i think it needs more discussion.

[Longy]

But surely by not raising by the time the river comes you have no idea where you are at all, and no idea whether to call or fold.  If the villan has a worse hand he will probably fold to a reraise on the flop or turn.  If he does have something like the bare ace, then by raising you are giving him a chance to fold his draw, and not make a bluff on the river which puts the OP in a tricky situation.  And if he reraises you you can assume he has a set or a made flush already, and pass.  Just my opinion.

I understand where you going here and it is nice in poker if we get nice clean cut decisions to make.

Yet sacrificing that extra bet on the turn we gain when ahead, is alot more +ev than blowing a player off his hand on the flop not matter what information we gain from it.

What happens if we raise and villan calls, do we know anymore about villans hand range then we do by calling apart from the fact we have managed to fold out all pure bluffs that might bet the turn.

By the river we have quite abit of info and imo villans hand range is very heavily weighted to v strong hand and therefore i advocate a fold.

[Dubai]

Call yo

[LuckyLloyd]

I call here and I take your line 100% of the time vs an unknown.