GUKPT london exit hand

[MANTIS01]

You are playing a game of poker against seemingly loose, even reckless opponents. This is a very active table with villain raising 4 out of the first 10 hands, another villain 3-betting with 9-4, and then getting looked up by 10-J. The way for you to beat this game is definitely not jumping feet first into it with a loose, even reckless strat of your own. I would forget about the justification of your strat and how that may or may not make sense, I mean any strat can make sense from certain angles. The only point you need to absorb is this....you were pushing a weak hand on a v poor board into a game that required you to wait for strength. And you didn't do that. I wouldn't even c-bet this flop in a loose game vs a loose oppo and agree with those who would give it up. There will be plenty of easy chips on offer around this table when you have a proper hand imo.

So would you not be 3-betting some of Jamie's opens fairly light? I would.

Nah dude, I don't think I would. The guy has demonsrated that 3-betting him carries very little FE. He's just been 3-bet and continued with his J-high holding anyway only to knock out 3-bet guy. So what would 3-betting this guy actually achieve if you don't have a hand? It only serves to inflate the pot and tempt you to continue betting light on the flop...and this is the same strat as the 7-7...pushing with weakness...a strat to be avoided in this game imo. It's ok to know this guy opens light and it's ok to donate a few blinds to him in the meantime because when you catch him he'll pay you in full.

[TheChipPrince]

Out of interest, when he flats your flop bet, do you decide to c.r.a.i. at this point, or was your decision solely taken when the is dealt?

[GreekStein]

My point about 3-betting pre wasn't to Tom about this hand in particular - it was to Mantis who suggested that we essentially nit it up when I think there is a lot of benefit in an intelligent player like Tom being able to 3-bet the regular opens of Jamie Brown. I'm not saying put it in his eye with 92 but I'm happy to play back at him with decent hands.

Villain should also know calling Tom's 3-bets with hands like j10 is prob not going to be a good strat or +EV.

[MANTIS01]

I think rocking up against this guy is the perfect strat really. He calls 3-bets light and Tom says his floating potential is very high. So against this type of villain we can go to town with him when we get a hand. 3-bet pre with strength, c-bet the flop, check the turn, would be how I want to play this particular guy in this particular game. I don't see why we're in such a rush. 

[George2Loose]

One thing me and Tom were discussing last night- if Jamie misses the turn and Tom checks is Jamie basically betting 100% of the time???

[MANTIS01]

One thing me and Tom were discussing last night- if Jamie misses the turn and Tom checks is Jamie basically betting 100% of the time???

Almost certainly. I don't think he's calling the flop to hit his middle pin.

[Numpty Dumpty]

Out of interest, when he flats your flop bet, do you decide to c.r.a.i. at this point, or was your decision solely taken when the is dealt?

i actually decided to c.r.a.i as soon as he flatted. i believe my major mistake was not reacting enough to the  turn and changing the plan

[Numpty Dumpty]

One thing me and Tom were discussing last night- if Jamie misses the turn and Tom checks is Jamie basically betting 100% of the time???

Almost certainly. I don't think he's calling the flop to hit his middle pin.

definately. he is just too good a player to be calling for value here - there is none! this must be a float with intention of taking it if i show weakness on the turn

[neverbluff67]

I think rocking up against this guy is the perfect strat really. He calls 3-bets light and Tom says his floating potential is very high. So against this type of villain we can go to town with him when we get a hand. 3-bet pre with strength, c-bet the flop, check the turn, would be how I want to play this particular guy in this particular game. I don't see why we're in such a rush. 

This^^

Theres no need to try to win every hand imo, if hes flatting 3bets with J10ss etc there will be much easier ways to bust him than with 77 on AQ8.  I think the best option is to just check fold the flop.  I don't think this is weak either, seems pretty standard.   If it encourages players to play back at you, you can adjust to this later on.

[Royal Flush]

Just read the OP and not the replies so sorry if this has been said before but cb'ing this flop then check jamming turn is a good line UNTILL the peels off as its about the worst card in the deck if he has a draw he has either hit or made a pair (which he isn't going to bet fold) so right idea but with this turn card just cry and c/f

[AlexMartin]

Honestly against a good player out of position i wouldnt even fire the flop. Id giveup there.

yeah i agree with this.  i just cbet then give up or c/fold in this spot vs some1 capable.

fair enough. i think it would be weak to check-fold the flop on a strong table - you are just setting yourself up to get lots of resistance from then on. but yes, on this table the check-fold on the turn seems like the right option

Nice debate Tom, always intereting to hear you (and ur brothers) thoughts.

 I think the serious headaches you are causing yourself here vastly outweigh the fact that we might in some way get exploited. So we dont cbet 100% of our range and are capable of check folding AXX flops oop with the initiative. So what! In live mtts this will so rarely impact on our lifetime performance that we might aswell count the significance of it as nil.

I dislike cbetting, our hand has little flexibility on later streets but most importantly we are oop against a strong confident opponent on a highly positionally significant board. We dont have to win every pot to win this thing.

[MANTIS01]

Honestly against a good player out of position i wouldnt even fire the flop. Id giveup there.

yeah i agree with this.  i just cbet then give up or c/fold in this spot vs some1 capable.

fair enough. i think it would be weak to check-fold the flop on a strong table - you are just setting yourself up to get lots of resistance from then on. but yes, on this table the check-fold on the turn seems like the right option

Nice debate Tom, always intereting to hear you (and ur brothers) thoughts.

 I think the serious headaches you are causing yourself here vastly outweigh the fact that we might in some way get exploited. So we dont cbet 100% of our range and are capable of check folding AXX flops oop with the initiative. So what! In live mtts this will so rarely impact on our lifetime performance that we might aswell count the significance of it as nil.

I dislike cbetting, our hand has little flexibility on later streets but most importantly we are oop against a strong confident opponent on a highly positionally significant board. We dont have to win every pot to win this thing.

I actually think c-folding without a c-bet in this example can improve your image in the game overall. Against the aggro players you will look weak/exploitable and for a future trapping strat vs them you want to appear this way. It also adds credibility to your future c-bet bluffs vs the tighter players.