Call or Fold

[titaniumbean]

Ok Guys.......... in this particular hand I was actually the Big Blind...

I just wanted a little feedback from people whose opinion I would respect...

In my opinion the guy played the hand about as bad as  anyone could..

1. open limp with this marginal....if i played this hand at all i'd be coming in for a raise..

2. im not overly happy about the flat call of another large stack even with position... QJ o/s is like KJ KQ A 10 etc in this position... you could be destroyed pre and end up calling off a lump when you hit

3. I actually mentally kicked myself after this hand as I had no need to play such a big pot as I had chipped up nicely with no hands against a relatively soft table but I could almost smell the guys weakness.. i knew after the flop and the big pot bet he either had nothing and was trying to take it down or he had a weak jack that couldnt stand a re-push...( i had Ak,which i had planned to check fold but he looked so uncomfortable ) and even if he did i still had an escape hatch... Unfortunatley the guy took 1 second to call which meant there was no thought process at all of the hand from start to finish and he like so many just saw top pair....
Lets face it anything remotely genuine had this guy crushed in a pot for 125BB...

In his position after the flop check from me I would check behind and see what the BB done on the turn..this is more a pot control check and im looking to maybe catch a pair of 8,9,10s thinking there ahead but if i get repushed like that i cant find an argument that im in any way in front

This a decent buyin festival event may go some way to the argument of how bad live players are ( as a half live half internet player i have always stood up for the live player )...as a more extreme example in the same tourney, a guy hit a middle pin on the turn v my top set Queens which i checked called hoping to pair the board and take all his money and when the river blanked he actually checked behind me last to act with the stone cold nuts... he was truly awful and  went on to finish 4th for £4k..

Hi,

I really don't think this is a very good way to be looking at the hand. By posting it from the other perspective you gain nothing except confirmation that the other played the hand badly, that is just confirmation that you are doing your game selection right  

The only things that you should be taking from this specific hand/situation/mistake are; that you need to remember to not assume that because you think one way is the best way to play a hand that's what your opponent is thinking (if they are even thinking at all!). Just because you would pot control that marginal hand from his perspective he has to bet and protect his tp maybe.

Just because you have no reads doesn't mean that he will play as cautiously as you would in that spot, if he is just playing his hand it doesn't matter who he is up against or why. You refer to knowing that he will def fold a J which is TP live which you just cant know. The standards of £300-£1000 competitions really isn't great compared to that of an online $100 or $200 tournament.



So anyway I take it that the actual hh is

MP VIL 40k
BB HERO 25k

MP calls 400, SB completes, BB raises to 2.4k, MP calls 2k, SB folds.

FLOP

J53r  (5k)

BB check, bet 5k, raise 22.6k (17.6k to call pot of [5+22.6+5]=32.6k  with [40-5-2.4]=32.6 so ~ 1/2 that much left which is 40 bets if he calls and loses roughly)

Preflop is fine.  Why do you then check a rainbow flop with the initiative. Surely if you are checking you are checking to check fold, a psb at a rainbow board having limped looks alot stronger to me from an unknown than a smaller bet or the same bet on a more co-ordinated board.  As you are deep still and this player is obviously poor because even with a big stack he is open limping in a circuit even i'd just now c/f, I would rather bet 3k and fold to a raise or just get flatted and play a turn than try and c/r and move him off whatever he has potted the flop with.


Don't get me wrong I dont mean to sound preachy or like I am being results orientated considering the thread had evolved before I replied but i've done stuff like this live before and it is normally in the situation where I am OOP and have checked and then dont want to fold, you've just gotta bink one of your outs when called obv!

[Longy]

I don't get why you don't cbet the flop instead of trying some fancy check raise move that risks 18k instead of 3k against an opponent like this.

[celtic]

I don't get why you don't cbet the flop instead of trying some fancy check raise move that risks 18k instead of 3k against an opponent like this.

Which was my point. Butchered by sicilidonk imo.

[Simon Galloway]

I don't get why you don't cbet the flop instead of trying some fancy check raise move that risks 18k instead of 3k against an opponent like this.

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!

OK, well the cat is out of the bag now.  Let's put it another way.  Dean, when was the last time you check raised the flop with an actual hand?

[the sicilian]

I don't get why you don't bet the flop instead of trying some fancy check raise move that risks 18k instead of 3k against an opponent like this.

When the flop came down my thoughts were firmly in the c/f camp but his large bet screamed weakness and he looked incredibly uncomfortable.. I suppose a slightly safer option would to be c/c the bet and lead the turn but I still think we are moving into commitment type areas... I quite liked the move apart from the result, i still had outs and c/r Allin from original raiser is incredibly powerful.. however i feel c/f was the right play as i was deep and the table was soft..opportunities were just around the corner...

My reasons for laying out the post from a different perspective were 2 fold really H/analysis and maybe open a debate on the level of skill of your average live player.. I mean I'm not short of a few quid by any means but i still feel £300 is a big buyin for an average player and I think that the vast majority of people who enter these events must be completely deluded or/and very losing players...

[the sicilian]

I don't get why you don't cbet the flop instead of trying some fancy check raise move that risks 18k instead of 3k against an opponent like this.

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!

OK, well the cat is out of the bag now.  Let's put it another way.  Dean, when was the last time you check raised the flop with an actual hand?

I really have to thank you for this Simon..anyone reading this would think im a complete lagtard nutter..   

[titaniumbean]

I don't get why you don't bet the flop instead of trying some fancy check raise move that risks 18k instead of 3k against an opponent like this.

My reasons for laying out the post from a different perspective were 2 fold really H/analysis and maybe open a debate on the level of skill of your average live player.. I mean I'm not short of a few quid by any means but i still feel £300 is a big buyin for an average player and I think that the vast majority of people who enter these events must be completely deluded or/and very losing players...

Didn't mean to come across rude talking about the posting style, I was very surprised coming from online of all tournaments from 300-1k. The 1k at DTD that I played was by far the worst standard tournament I have seen it was crazy. There are alot of losing players and not enough tournaments for luck to even themselves out such that if they win even a little bit once or twice they wont think they are doing that bad and will keep donating.

At the last monthly deepstack there, the table was shorthanded for the first half an hour and I was isolating the lady to my left every time she limped which was most hands and not once did she raise pre or rr me she would just fold mainly pre or call and c/f unless she connected. People where pointing out what I was doing and no one tried to stop me it was weird.

[MANTIS01]

I don't get why you don't bet the flop instead of trying some fancy check raise move that risks 18k instead of 3k against an opponent like this.

My reasons for laying out the post from a different perspective were 2 fold really H/analysis and maybe open a debate on the level of skill of your average live player.. I mean I'm not short of a few quid by any means but i still feel £300 is a big buyin for an average player and I think that the vast majority of people who enter these events must be completely deluded or/and very losing players...

Didn't mean to come across rude talking about the posting style, I was very surprised coming from online of all tournaments from 300-1k. The 1k at DTD that I played was by far the worst standard tournament I have seen it was crazy. There are alot of losing players and not enough tournaments for luck to even themselves out such that if they win even a little bit once or twice they wont think they are doing that bad and will keep donating.

At the last monthly deepstack there, the table was shorthanded for the first half an hour and I was isolating the lady to my left every time she limped which was most hands and not once did she raise pre or rr me she would just fold mainly pre or call and c/f unless she connected. People where pointing out what I was doing and no one tried to stop me it was weird.

You sound like you don't like live poker. Yeah, these 1k buy-in tournies full of terrible clueless players are a real drag aren't they? So why do we insist on spunking our stacks into them? It's up to us to outplay whoever's put in front of us nomatter how bad they might be and sicilian couldn't do that. These tournaments aren't so easy to win if you play worse than the bad players.