Verbal declaration ruling - Cunningham from WSOP ME

[Boba Fett]

From this years WSOP shows

http://www.pokertube.com/free-poker-videos?movie=18150&title=WSOP_2011_Ep_18_-_Main_Event_Part_12_2_2

11 mins in, hand with Allen Cunningham and Visser.  On the river, Cunningham picks up some chips (80k apparently) and moves them forward, Visser announces call before the chips are released.  Cunningham then asks for a ruling as he hadn't released his bet so hadn't declared an amount.

Ruling is given that Cunningham can bet any amount still, but has to bet at least the minimum.  It wasn't mentioned specifically but I think Visser was to be held to a call only (Rupert was at the table, can maybe clarify).

The question is, should Visser have all options open?  If Cunningham decides to massively overbet/shove does Visser still have to call?  If Cunningham bets the minimum can Visser now raise?

This year at UKIPT Edinburgh, with about 4 tables left I had a hand, folds to SB who min raises, I flat the BB.  We check/check flop and turn.  He checks the river, I reach for chips.  Don't remember stacks exactly but it was something like 75k in the pot with 250k effective behind.  Pretty much as soon as I touch the chips the player says "I call", I say "What?"  he says "Im calling any amount you bet"

I ask for a ruling on if he is held to call any amount and if he has options open to him when I bet.  Dealer says he thinks its held to a call and cant raise but wanted to check and calls the floor, floor said the same thing but wanted to check with one of the more senior floor men and he said SB isn't held to any action and has all options open.

So should he also have all options open?  It seems like the same situation with the only difference being Cunningham made forward motion and is held to betting, I had chips in my hand but hadn't made a betting motion yet.

[outragous76]

alan can only bet the chips in his hand (80k) - therefore cant overbet

other chap has called already

[Boba Fett]

alan can only bet the chips in his hand (80k) - therefore cant overbet

other chap has called already

I think he can take 80k in his hand, push it over the line, chop it down and take some back if he wishes, or also take 80k, push it over the line and verbally declare a higher amount......allowing him to go back to his stack for more chips.

[gatso]

I think the ruling's wrong

from wsop rulebook

Verbal declarations in turn regarding wagers are binding. Players must act in turn at all times. Action out of turn will be binding if the action to that player has not changed. A check, call or fold is not considered action changing. If a player acts out of turn and the action changes, the person who acted out of turn may change their action by calling, raising or folding and may have their chips returned. Players may not intentionally act out of turn to influence play before them. Violators will receive a penalty in accordance with Rule No. 96.

he's acted oot and any bet from cunningham will now be action changing so he shouldn't be held to the call. all options available and a penalty after the hand if it's ruled he did it intentionally

[dik9]

alan can only bet the chips in his hand (80k) - therefore cant overbet

other chap has called already

I think he can take 80k in his hand, push it over the line, chop it down and take some back if he wishes, or also take 80k, push it over the line and verbally declare a higher amount......allowing him to go back to his stack for more chips.

This

I think the ruling's wrong

from wsop rulebook

Verbal declarations in turn regarding wagers are binding. Players must act in turn at all times. Action out of turn will be binding if the action to that player has not changed. A check, call or fold is not considered action changing. If a player acts out of turn and the action changes, the person who acted out of turn may change their action by calling, raising or folding and may have their chips returned. Players may not intentionally act out of turn to influence play before them. Violators will receive a penalty in accordance with Rule No. 96.

he's acted oot and any bet from cunningham will now be action changing so he shouldn't be held to the call. all options available and a penalty after the hand if it's ruled he did it intentionally

This

Also if I remember right WSOP rules state that chips must be released before the wager is binding, I remember a stroke from a russian in wsop 2010 who pushed his stack into the pot and pulled it out without releasing and he was deemed to not have bet.

[dik9]

Also the TD in question was Robbie Thompson, who made the farcical display at the Ladies event this year.

[titaniumbean]

Also the TD in question was Robbie Thompson, who made the farcical display at the Ladies event this year.

He's a fking useless prick imo.


Does a disservice to the other excellent floor staff they do have.