3betting to 5bet, £1/£2 at DTD

[Pugwashed]

Played a hand the other day and I was wondering whether other people like the 3bet/5bet line with some history rather than flatting pre. Firstly the relevant history:

With no history villain 5bet crammed A4o into AK big blind vs button against someone else.

Next orbit, straddled to £4, folds to villain in sb, he makes it £20, I make it £55 in bb, straddle folds, he makes it £120, I cram ~£550 and he folds, tells me after he had AJ and keeps asking what I had

A while later, he opens cutoff, I 3bet button, he call. Flop  , he check/calls. Turn  goes check/check. River  , goes check/check. He turns over  , I muck (lol)

So thats the history, a bit later, random fish limps (had been doing this and getting isolated a lot), villain makes it £15 on the button, I look down at  (I have ~£500 and villain covers). Is 3bettting to 5bet a bit too thin here or fine with the history? Even if 3bet/5bet is ok is it better just flatting to keep the fish in? Thoughts?

[rfgqqabc]

My friends played on this table, and he sounded unbelievably mental. Its probably not great, as he may go mentall and your against such a wide range. I wouldn't 3bet if i wasn't prepared to put it in tho. Probably better to do it with ATo tho

[Pugwashed]

My friends played on this table, and he sounded unbelievably mental. Its probably not great, as he may go mentall and your against such a wide range. I wouldn't 3bet if i wasn't prepared to put it in tho. Probably better to do it with ATo tho

The reason I'd be 3betting is specifically because I expect to get 4bet bluffed a lot in a spot where he's wide pre and he knows I can be light, giving me a profitable 5bet jam so the fact that he'd "go mentall" as you put it would be the argument for 3bet/5bet over flatting pre, (obviously 3bet/folding would be the worst option and I didn't mention it in the OP because I didn't feel like it needed saying). As for ATo being better to do it with, thats just not the case, it doesn't change any blockers I have and plays worse when he calls the 5bet.

[rfgqqabc]

If you want to be 3 betting a certain % then it definitely is better to 3b ATo rather than ATs, as ATs plays a lot better multi-way. Thats what i meant. If hes 4betting a shit ton just go for it man, but its pretty high variance esp when he has shown down stuff like AJ in these situations. If you have the roll and can stand the variance its got to be fine vs the player. But he did seem like the guy to stack off for lols with a variety of hands, and AT doesn't go great against the range, despite being plus ev. 

[mulhuzz]

what do you think he's calling the 5b with?

[Pugwashed]

what do you think he's calling the 5b with?

Tbh, I don't know. I'd say he probably 4b/calls AQ+ and 99+, maybe wider but I'm just guessing really. I don't think he expects me to 3bet/5bet a hand like ATs. It doesn't change the fact that I felt like it was a spot he'd 4bet bluff a lot when he is so wide pre and he knows that I know that and he knows I'm capable of being light, also the fact that he might peel fairly wide (having already flatted a 3bet oop with T6s) means the times that we both flop the same pair I'm a lot more likely to dominate his pair. I ended up flatting in the end so I didn't get to see how he reacted to a 3bet, I think its a good spot for me to 3bet/5bet here but I'm definitely interested to see what more people think

[SuuPRlim]

ATs is a miles better hand to 3bet than ATo.

People get confused between which hand is better to 3bet and which hand is better to flat, with ATo it's defo better to 3bet it than flat, ATs would be a fine hand to flat. Doesn't make ATo a better hand to 3bet than ATs obviously it's miles better to have a suited hand than an un-suited hand in a 3bet pot.

I don't think 3betting ATo would be as good here due to the frequency you are going to be 4bet.

with the hand in question flatting seems optimal to me but I agree that 3b/5b is better than 3b/fold so if we're 3betting we should be 5bet jamming vs a 4bet for the reasons you've stated

[mulhuzz]

what do you think he's calling the 5b with?

Tbh, I don't know. I'd say he probably 4b/calls AQ+ and 99+, maybe wider but I'm just guessing really. I don't think he expects me to 3bet/5bet a hand like ATs. It doesn't change the fact that I felt like it was a spot he'd 4bet bluff a lot when he is so wide pre and he knows that I know that and he knows I'm capable of being light, also the fact that he might peel fairly wide (having already flatted a 3bet oop with T6s) means the times that we both flop the same pair I'm a lot more likely to dominate his pair. I ended up flatting in the end so I didn't get to see how he reacted to a 3bet, I think its a good spot for me to 3bet/5bet here but I'm definitely interested to see what more people think

why are we turning our hand into a bluff when we can just own him through the streets?

[Pugwashed]

what do you think he's calling the 5b with?

Tbh, I don't know. I'd say he probably 4b/calls AQ+ and 99+, maybe wider but I'm just guessing really. I don't think he expects me to 3bet/5bet a hand like ATs. It doesn't change the fact that I felt like it was a spot he'd 4bet bluff a lot when he is so wide pre and he knows that I know that and he knows I'm capable of being light, also the fact that he might peel fairly wide (having already flatted a 3bet oop with T6s) means the times that we both flop the same pair I'm a lot more likely to dominate his pair. I ended up flatting in the end so I didn't get to see how he reacted to a 3bet, I think its a good spot for me to 3bet/5bet here but I'm definitely interested to see what more people think

why are we turning our hand into a bluff when we can just own him through the streets?

Its not fair to say we're turning our hand into a bluff. The 3bet is more for value as a) we think we can induce 4bet bluffs, and b) he almost never has us dominated when he flats the 3bet. Our ability to own him "through the streets" when we flat is kinda limited by the fact that we're 3 handed oop this deep. I think a better way to make money here might be exploiting the fact that I think he's probably 4bet bluffing way too often here and/or calling too wide. Also, the times that he flats and we flop top pair its near enough the nuts and its much easier to play with the lead and a smaller SPR. I might be wrong tho about which is better, hence the thread

[mulhuzz]

Its not fair to say we're turning our hand into a bluff. The 3bet is more for value as a) we think we can induce 4bet bluffs, and b) he almost never has us dominated when he flats the 3bet. Our ability to own him "through the streets" when we flat is kinda limited by the fact that we're 3 handed oop this deep. I think a better way to make money here might be exploiting the fact that I think he's probably 4bet bluffing way too often here and/or calling too wide. Also, the times that he flats and we flop top pair its near enough the nuts and its much easier to play with the lead and a smaller SPR. I might be wrong tho about which is better, hence the thread

norrrr, i get the logic of 3bet to 5bet, but think you might have misunderstood what I meant..

since he 4bets wide, he we no just flat 4bet and own him? i guess harder since we're OOP ofc.

the 5b is essentially a bluff if he never calls worse though.

[pleno1]

calling the 4bet would  be a huge mistake., defo 3bet for value here, hes gonna peel super wide and he wont 4b too much as uve already shown a willingness to 5bet. Just let him call the 3bet with a3s, 109o etc and own post 80pc of timee, 10pc 5bet and win money from his 4bet and the other 10pc we have 30ish pc when he calls.

Dont flat a 4bet tho.

[Eso Kral]

Its not fair to say we're turning our hand into a bluff. The 3bet is more for value as a) we think we can induce 4bet bluffs, and b) he almost never has us dominated when he flats the 3bet. Our ability to own him "through the streets" when we flat is kinda limited by the fact that we're 3 handed oop this deep. I think a better way to make money here might be exploiting the fact that I think he's probably 4bet bluffing way too often here and/or calling too wide. Also, the times that he flats and we flop top pair its near enough the nuts and its much easier to play with the lead and a smaller SPR. I might be wrong tho about which is better, hence the thread

norrrr, i get the logic of 3bet to 5bet, but think you might have misunderstood what I meant..

since he 4bets wide, he we no just flat 4bet and own him? i guess harder since we're OOP ofc.

the 5b is essentially a bluff if he never calls worse though.

I dont play much cash really so am prepared to be flamed,  but is flatting the 4bet bad as lets say we 3b to £45 and villain 4b's to £115 (seems consistent with history described)
There is circa £230-£240 and we have £385 back which is approx 1.5 psb back making post flop difficult to own unless we flop well?