Ghey Spot - one for the 6max wizards

[titaniumbean]

if you have to raise fold TT to a 3bet, game select moar?

opposite.

DUCY?

im actually tleted that ehret aer no spellngi mstiakse

[pleno1]

r/f TT is pretty fking exploitative.

SO? its 100nl?

ok i understand now.

[Honeybadger]

It is actually 50NL. This makes a pretty big difference.

[pleno1]

i disagree again, 50/100nl plays very similar.

have actually watched a big bunch of it recently and played some as I'm on a staking project with some aspiring 50-200nl players

[Honeybadger]

Ok fair enough, I'll take your word for that.

What I meant by my point 2 is that someone working their way up the stakes can get away with not having a flatting range when out of position at 50NL and can be 4bet or fold. It is giving up very, very little (and in fact will actually be optimal in many circumstances anyway) and they can add a flatting range OOP into their play later on.

[pleno1]

Yeah I completely disagree but that's cool ofc.

One of the biggest mistakes they do is getting jj/qq in so we would literally be folding way too much.  If you are going to suggest jus 4b/calling jj/qq as std then that will simply be -ev in too many spots.

This is without even taking into consideration personal development and lot being bashed up when you do decide to move up.

[Honeybadger]

Yeh, you're probably right actually Patrick. First time you've ever easily convinced me of something lol!

In a CO/BTN dynamic it is perfectly reasonable to play 4bet or fold when starting out, since we can get JJ+ and AK in for clear value, and often TT and AQ in for (sometimes very) thin value. But you are right... when opening in EP you do need to have a flatting range vs 3bets OOP even at 50NL.

Obviously the one thing we both agree on though is that in the actual hand TT is a (close) fold.

[rbc_mike]

Really great discussion in this thread, thanks for all the contributions!

I should be posting a fair few hands over the next couple of weeks, hopefully can explore more spots that at first seem 'standard' but are actually more complex.

[JustinSayne]

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    56.026%     55.82%    00.20%         344110008      1253802.00   { JJ+, AQs+, A5s-A2s, AKo }
Hand 1:    43.974%     43.77%    00.20%         269811828      1253802.00   { TT }

Thats a 4.5% 3bet range, Which i would say is about average for a 50nl reg in these positions. With these ranges he also has a 70-30 value-bluffing 3bet range which is close to optimal (optimal being 60-40 iir).

Plus we are OOP and I have given him way more bluffs then I think is actually reasonable for most 50nl regs.

Then factor in if he only ever barrells turn/river as a bluff with As/Ks he will simply have too many value combos

If I give him every AQo combo with As/Qs aswell we will just about break even on a call.

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    31.579%     31.58%    00.00%                12            0.00   { TcTs }
Hand 1:    68.421%     68.42%    00.00%                26            0.00   { JJ+, AsKs, AsQs, As5s, As4s, As3s, As2s, AcKs, AdKs, AhKs, AsKc, AsKd, AsKh, AcQs, AdQs, AhQs, AsQc, AsQd, AsQh }

Another point to make, if we widen his 3bet range, it only leads to him having a bunch of AJ combos in there too, so things get considerably worse

So to summarise.

50nl not 3betting light pre often enough

Not barrelling off often enough and even if he does with the widest range possible imo we still are close to break even at best

Always remember, folding is 0ev.