A ruling please

[MadYank]

Live game, blinds are 800/1600.
You have 25k and raise in late position to 5k, chap next to you reraises to 10k.
Action back to you (dealer says) and you call the 5k leaving 15k back.
Then a chap in the blind says "i'm allin" for 40k, he is before you and in effect you have acted out of turn thinking he had folded.
Now the question is can you fold or do you have to go allin???

The ruling by the cardroom manager was that you had to go allin as your chips had crossesd the line this was backed up by the other cardroom manager, is this correct?

Complete nonsense as pointed out by other posters.  I really think that a lot of these bizarre rulings must be down to poor communication or poor listening skills.

That's part of the reason. Add...

TD's lack the necessary Authority.

We don't have Standard Rules.

Everyone at the Table joins in the debate & it becomes a "who shouts loudest" contest.

It would be SO easy to clean up Poker & make it a better game for all. Gonna be a struggle to achieve though.

AHEM!

Mssr. Tikay?

TDA ules are THE Standard but I have always detected strong resistance from UK cardrooms for the simple reason that they were generated by mostly American TDs?

For smaller cardrooms they are ideealy self contained and easy to read/follow. Alas, many a room clings to randomized house rules which are they often misinterpreted themselves.

[tikay]

Live game, blinds are 800/1600.
You have 25k and raise in late position to 5k, chap next to you reraises to 10k.
Action back to you (dealer says) and you call the 5k leaving 15k back.
Then a chap in the blind says "i'm allin" for 40k, he is before you and in effect you have acted out of turn thinking he had folded.
Now the question is can you fold or do you have to go allin???

The ruling by the cardroom manager was that you had to go allin as your chips had crossesd the line this was backed up by the other cardroom manager, is this correct?

Complete nonsense as pointed out by other posters.  I really think that a lot of these bizarre rulings must be down to poor communication or poor listening skills.

That's part of the reason. Add...

TD's lack the necessary Authority.

We don't have Standard Rules.

Everyone at the Table joins in the debate & it becomes a "who shouts loudest" contest.

It would be SO easy to clean up Poker & make it a better game for all. Gonna be a struggle to achieve though.

AHEM!

Mssr. Tikay?

TDA ules are THE Standard but I have always detected strong resistance from UK cardrooms for the simple reason that they were generated by mostly American TDs?

For smaller cardrooms they are ideealy self contained and easy to read/follow. Alas, many a room clings to randomized house rules which are they often misinterpreted themselves.

In truth Mr F, it matters not greatly WHOSE Rules we use - just let's have one set for all! Then we can tinker with them as needed.

It's really rather bizarre to host a Forum such as blonde. Barely a day goes past without someone Posting "this happened last night, wotdoyathink", then all the experts (you & me included) pile in with their replies, all different. It rarely occurs to folk that there is NO RIGHT OR WRONG ANSWER, because we don't have standard Rules.

Poker is determined to shoot itself in the foot. It'd miss, of course.

[boldie]

Live game, blinds are 800/1600.
You have 25k and raise in late position to 5k, chap next to you reraises to 10k.
Action back to you (dealer says) and you call the 5k leaving 15k back.
Then a chap in the blind says "i'm allin" for 40k, he is before you and in effect you have acted out of turn thinking he had folded.
Now the question is can you fold or do you have to go allin???

The ruling by the cardroom manager was that you had to go allin as your chips had crossesd the line this was backed up by the other cardroom manager, is this correct?

Complete nonsense as pointed out by other posters.  I really think that a lot of these bizarre rulings must be down to poor communication or poor listening skills.

That's part of the reason. Add...

TD's lack the necessary Authority.

We don't have Standard Rules.

Everyone at the Table joins in the debate & it becomes a "who shouts loudest" contest.

It would be SO easy to clean up Poker & make it a better game for all. Gonna be a struggle to achieve though.

Add,

Most TD's have no idea on what the ruels actually are...they have picked up a poker book often enough but have misread the bloody thing. Of course rules need to be sorted out but if a TD REALLY thinks he is obliged to call the all-in he shouldn't be a TD. and unfortunatly this is the case in way too many places.

[Yogi-Bear]

I guess I used to be a TD.

Will be soon again maybe. Who Knows.

But as soon as the Blind makes it 40k, then he can take the second 5k back. Its actually stated in the Grosvenor rules as well.

If someone acts out of turn it stands.

Should the legal hand bet more than the offending player then they have the option to call or PASS only.

Should the legal hand bet up to the amount of the illegal bet, then they must call the bet.

He has called 5k not call anything that gets put in. As soon as he says 40k, then he can pass or call.

Also, to quote another Grosvenor rule.

It is each players responsibility to call in turn, even if they are misled by the dealer. (This rule does not apply if the player is misled by a house dealer.)

Of course the rules dont say what should happen if a house dealer does mislead  him tho.

Yogi

[boldie]

I guess I used to be a TD.

Will be soon again maybe. Who Knows.

But as soon as the Blind makes it 40k, then he can take the second 5k back. Its actually stated in the Grosvenor rules as well.

If someone acts out of turn it stands.

Should the legal hand bet more than the offending player then they have the option to call or PASS only.

Should the legal hand bet up to the amount of the illegal bet, then they must call the bet.

He has called 5k not call anything that gets put in. As soon as he says 40k, then he can pass or call.

Also, to quote another Grosvenor rule.

It is each players responsibility to call in turn, even if they are misled by the dealer. (This rule does not apply if the player is misled by a house dealer.)

Of course the rules dont say what should happen if a house dealer does mislead  him tho.

Yogi

Yogi...I wouldn't tar you with the same brush as the TD's I was referring to...you actually know what you're doing

[MadYank]

I guess I used to be a TD.

Will be soon again maybe. Who Knows.

But as soon as the Blind makes it 40k, then he can take the second 5k back. Its actually stated in the Grosvenor rules as well.

If someone acts out of turn it stands.

Should the legal hand bet more than the offending player then they have the option to call or PASS only.

Should the legal hand bet up to the amount of the illegal bet, then they must call the bet.

He has called 5k not call anything that gets put in. As soon as he says 40k, then he can pass or call.

Also, to quote another Grosvenor rule.

It is each players responsibility to call in turn, even if they are misled by the dealer. (This rule does not apply if the player is misled by a house dealer.)

Of course the rules dont say what should happen if a house dealer does mislead  him tho.

Yogi

Having been/being a TD on both sides of the pond as well I think my previous ruling is straightforward and fair.

As far as "Grovsnors Rules," I'm not really sure what they mean in that having played in at least 4 Grovs Cardooms (TheVic/London, Walsall, Luton, Blackpool (only once) )   they all had (sometimes wildy) varying rules intepreted/posted. Almost every UK cadroom I entered seemed to have some "home field" rules that were nonsensical. Being as I was London Based, I, along with several other VIC players lobbyed The VIC for changes and standardization which resulted in some satisfactory improvement.

Overall though, I agree with Tikay that standardized rules are needed and importantly standardized training for both managers and dealers is also needed. Including in this training should be the ability to tell the 8 shouting players (who all think they know what should happen) to in a sort of way STFU. Like many other things in life or gaming a clear and direct ruling with conviction behind it is a far better ruling (even if perhaps technically flawed) than a wishwashy sway with the mood of the mob ruling in which news players feel they are completely at the mercy of the "locals." I (as a highly experienced and NOT MEEK, I assure you) player got this feeling several times at Walsall and didn't return for over a year because of it. I can only imagine how it may have affected an inexperienced player who felt they were getting railroaded by locals and colluding managers/staff.

Directly addressing the "Out of Turn Action Binding" rule for Grovsnor, this is clearly a horrid rule. This should only be enforced heads-up in that the advantage is yielded to the other player whereas if this horrid rule is enforced in multiway pots then out of turn action is encouraged for shotakers and gains them an advantage.


Right-O. In summary, I'm trying to say that often times in may or may not matter what the rule on the wall says in that oftentimes (for Grovsnor and other cardrooms) that rule is blatantly wrong, or at other times (even when not wrong) is inerpreted to benefit regulars/locals rather than impartially.