Play along with Tighty

[TightEnd]

Full Tilt Poker Game #1356870673: Table Hedge Top - $2/$4 - No Limit Hold'em - 9:12:34 ET - 2006/12/05
Seat 1: Natrykris ($394)
Seat 2: HuskerMajor ($158.20)
Seat 3: 9to5 ($71.10)
Seat 4: URaACEhole ($725.90)
Seat 5: ZidorSkaya ($803)
Seat 6: aces_wired ($179.70)
Seat 7: delles007 ($396)
Seat 8: Happy2jackU ($181.55)
Seat 9: mavenae ($81.50)
delles007 posts the small blind of $2
Happy2jackU posts the big blind of $4
The button is in seat #6
9to5: or that
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Natrykris [ ]
Natrykris raises to $14
URaACEhole folds
ZidorSkaya calls $14
aces_wired folds
delles007 folds
Happy2jackU calls $10
*** FLOP *** [ ]
Happy2jackU checks
Natrykris bets $32
ZidorSkaya calls $32
Happy2jackU folds
*** TURN *** [ ] []
Natrykris ?


Zidor outchips me, is loose aggressive and will try to take pots away from weak players

your thoughts on if you bet and how much pls


rest of hand to follow

[Bongo]

If he's likely to try and take the pot away from you then what do you gain from betting - apart from possibly keeping the pot smaller?

[TightEnd]

does everyone check here? I can then be put to a tough decision on the river and be pushed off a possible winning hand

[kinboshi]

This is probably where I lose money - but I'd fire a decent bet at that.  $80?

If you don't bet you're giving up on the hand (unless you check-raise, but then you're possibly looking at putting your whole stack in), or would you call his inevitable bet?

I'm interested to hear what good players do here! 

[Bongo]

My thinking here is if he has the best hand then checking will keep the pot as small as possible.
If we have the best hand then checking may also get the most money from him, as he is aggressive and we are handing him the initiative.

Is there a major flaw in my thinking?

[totalise]

betting here is ok because you still figure to have the best hand, the loose villain figures that the 10 looks like a scare card, but the 10 pairs more draws (straight draws)  then it fills (gutshots or 6/7) so if you are ahead on the flop, you probably are on the turn(and you are probably ahead on the flop) I'd fire and let him think he can take it away. If you check, he might either peel with the draw, or figure that you are controlling the pot. Against these oppo's, I'll be happy to play for stacks, and betting gives the oppo the best chance of jamming to steal. I'd bet around $80 or so, any bet that lets oppo think he has leverage, and then get it in if he raises (unless he min-raises!) Your equity against his range is higher if you get it in by bet--calling rather then check-raising, which is why i prefer the bet approach here.

Obviously if your image was different, or his image was different, you would take a different line.

[kinboshi]

My thinking here is if he has the best hand then checking will keep the pot as small as possible.
If we have the best hand then checking may also get the most money from him, as he is aggressive and we are handing him the initiative.

Is there a major flaw in my thinking?

I'd prefer to bet on the turn, as I don't want to be calling an $80 bet here.  I'd much rather be the first in, and putting him to the decision.  If he bets you still don't know if you're ahead or behind (you don't necessarily know if you bet and he calls, but at least you know he's representing a pretty good hand).

But then again, I could be very wrong.

[Sheriff Fatman]

I think I check-raise here.  He might check behind, which keeps the pot small allowing you to check-call on the river if you don't improve.  Chances are he'll fire a bet of $50-70 so a raise to $120-150ish puts him to the test as much as you can from this position.

If he re-pops you then its down to whether you think there's any chance he's bluffing, but the money is less deep than in the bet-raise scenario so the decisions are somewhat more straightforward.

If he flat calls (nightmare) then you're pretty much in the same position, but get to see the river card before making it.

If he folds then great.  However, I think its the only way you get him to fold the turn.  Given your description I'd expect him to re-pop you.  The problem is, it wouldn't necessarily mean you were beat.

Awkward spot, regardless of what you do. but I think this is how I would tackle it.  Just goes to show that position is a wonderful thing!

Sheriff

[Sheriff Fatman]

Dammit!  Totalise posted while I was typing and completely disagrees with me - never a good sign!

[totalise]

Dammit!  Totalise posted while I was typing and completely disagrees with me - never a good sign!

hehe

The reason why I prefer bet-call (assuming he jams) to the check-raise is that your oppo knows you area weak player, and knows you are likely to have a hand that cant play for stacks (given the flop texture) so given that information, betting and calling lets you play for stacks against a pretty big range. He could well have any pair, any marginal draw, he could easily call the flop with zero just to make this play on the turn,  and of course all the hands that beat you. If the reads/images are as tighty says, you are playing for stacks against a pretty good amount of hands. It needs to be pointed out that the LAG isn't raising the pairs, for value, more because he expects mr weak to get scared of the board, and fold. Its what the players do, they look for scarey boards (and this one counts as scary) and mercilessly represent something, and their opponents believe.

If you check raise, you are almost never getting a call from 90% of the above range, he folds the smaller pairs, the weak draws, and gets it in with the big power-houses... so when you have the best, you win the pot+his bet, and when you have the worst, your stack is down the tube with little equity in the pot.

I would imagine that check-raising here is probably +EV, but bet-calling is going to have a superior expectation, in my opinion.


Maybe you bet, and he just calls, but thats not going to happen that often, given this board and the relative qualities of the players,  and if it does happen, you should be looking to check/fold on most rivers.

[Sheriff Fatman]

If you check raise, you are almost never getting a call from 90% of the above range, he folds the smaller pairs, the weak draws, and gets it in with the big power-houses... so when you have the best, you win the pot+his bet, and when you have the worst, your stack is down the tube with little equity in the pot.

But this is what I want him to do - define his hand without committing my stack.  Bet-call commits my full stack whether I'm ahead or behind.  Check-raising wins a smaller pot or lets me escape with half a stack.

Perhaps they're similar in EV terms, but bet-call is the higher variance play.  I suppose it all depends on whether Tighty wants to commit his full stack here or not as to which approach he goes with.  I don't think he can bet the turn without being prepared to follow up with his stack, but I think he can check-raise and then fold.  It seems counter-intuitive to say that, but check raising gives me the info I don't get from betting to allow me to do this.

[AndrewT]

Firstly, the obvious joke.

You've decided to play QQ UTG now, eh? You've loosened up recently.

OK, business. If he is a LAG that likes to take away pots from weak players, then a UTG raise/cont bet/check from you will look like AK that has missed, which he won't be able to resist betting at. So a bet from him here if you check needn't be feared. The same might be the case if you were to bet out, but then any raise from him will be a 'you are playing for your whole stack' moment, which is scary (and is exactly the type of situation where LAGs make their money)

Against LAGs, bets from them into checked pots don't mean as much as from other people, so I'm much more inclined to check to them OOP, rather than building the pot to a size where they're going to pounce on it.

In this situation, what's his range? AA/KK probably ruled out due to action so far (there'd have been a raise somewhere). JJ is behind but has picked up a draw (hitting one end of which will lead to you doubling up). 88, 99, TT are a world of pain for you. 76, 98, T9 are feasible from what you've told us of his play and, again, have you behind.

What else could he have? QJ would be an odd hand to play just behind an UTG raiser, so that's not a huge worry. Of course, he could just make a move with nothing.

However, given his image, you can't fold routinely overpairs to any action on vaguely scary boards, as this is where LAGs take pots away from people. Also, because of their image, LAGs force people to have committed a big chunk of chips to a pot by the time they've decided if they're ahead or behind.

I'm going to the river. The question is bet/call raise or reraise, check/call, or check/raise. Check/raise is out for me, as this is exactly what he wants people to do - commit themselves before the LAG has defined his hand. He then simply folds the losers and stacks people with the monsters.

I'd be inclined to check/call here, mostly because I've had my fingers burned too often by building pots OOP before I really know where I am in the hand. However, this line then looks exactly like an overpair controlling pot size.

I can see why you've posted this hand now Tighty, as I've gone right round in circles.

[TightEnd]

The reason why I prefer bet-call (assuming he jams) to the check-raise is that your oppo knows you are a weak player,

thanks mate! lol

my image needs a bit of a makeover methinks!

[TightEnd]

ok I decided I would bet to bet-call a raise and reassess on the river.

I thought a check handed the initiative over in a position where I was ahead of a fair  %age of his range and I have been working hard for several months to deal with this type of player applying pressure to me at this level ( previously I'd check a lot on a scare card and on analysis had decided I was passing too often ) 

I didn't want to check raise, as I get inferior hands to pass and commit when behind to a monster.


Here is what happened

*** TURN *** [ ] []
Natrykris bets $64
ZidorSkaya calls $64
*** RIVER *** [ ] []


Now him flat calling behind on the turn I must admit had me a bit flummoxed, I was expecting him to raise. Had real difficulty putting him on a hand here. Maybe a trip 8, possibly JJ.

and then the river is a brick (I think)


So its to you on the river, first to act.....


check or bet. If you check and he pushes, your action please....

[AndrewT]

Scary call from him.

$230ish in the pot, $280ish left in your stack. My gut instinct tells me I'm done with the hand now - he stayed in on the turn but felt no need to shut the hand down there and then.