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totalise
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« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2007, 06:00:40 PM »

hand 1: i agree with boldie why are you even asking the question here? you raise to $33 with a building hand then get re-raised and are asking what would you do there isnt even a question here its obvious

hand 2: pre-flop is fair enough play on the flop your betting less than half the pot giveing the flush/strait draw the odds to call you when the flush comes on the turn your actually think you are trapping him? and the strait comes on the river   you got to fold here your only ahead of a complete idiot, he could well of made the nut flush on the turn and giveing you a chance to hit something or have 89 here and scrared of the flush 

both hands i dont really think you got a question  the 1st def  the 2nd you played it wrong i figure you realize that otherwise why post?  we all learn by our mistakes and as i said yours was giveing him odds to hit if you bet 300 here and he has a flush/strait draw gl to him  we bet 180 here remembering he raised to 33 and we reraised 130 so there is at least 326 + the change in the pot as i said above im done with the hand on the turn not looking to trap the guy im looking to get a free river to fill up here


In poker, you dont always put your opponents on the one hand that is worst for you.. im not gonna structure my betting to assume 100% that he has a flush or straight draw, he also has pairs here, and i dont want to push him out the pot with everything he might hold... thats a fantastic way to minimize your equity in these spots.

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totalise
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« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2007, 06:41:19 PM »

Quote
Decent players are going to raise the button occasionally without a hand(esp shorthanded). I remember an old quote from Brunson where he said give me the button every hand and I can play my cards blind and win.

You're not playing Q8s here really but more playing position as you'll have a lot more information than your opponents throughout the hand while relatively deep stacked.

Of course occasionally you will flop a big hand and run into another hand that will pay you off. Your post flop skills have to be good though to get away as cheaply as possibly when behind(or find another way to win the pot if possible) and maximise your profit when ahead.

I think the concept of being dominated is sometimes overplayed. If you hit a pair of queens with an 8 kicker you will lose some money versus a better queen but are unlikely to stack off here, whereas it is quite possible that someone with AQ (if they happened to flat call you preflop) might well go broke on a Q 8 flop. Also the fact you share a card makes it less likely you both hit and more liekly you pick the pot up with post flop aggression.

Another reason to raise with this sort of hand was mentioned by byron and that's to disguise your real hands on the button. If you only ever have premium hands here, your raising range is predictable, which makes you easy to read and able to be outplayed more easily.

good post JC (and byron as always)


hand 1 I did fold, but Im pretty sure any competent players range is much wider then AA/KK, as its obviously a misclick (small chance of a fake misclick) and most peoples button range is wide, so they are shipping it in much looser. Not sure if its loose enough to call with Q7 however!

hand 2 I figured if they had a set theyd bet if I checked and call if I bet, so dint really care if they had a set or not, in my eyes it made no difference, given the preflop/flop/turn action its not likely they have a flush, so dint worry about that too much, and if they have a weaker made hand they will probably check back if I check, so betting I think is best. I of course checked and he checked back KK. The problem with betting here is that it forces good opponents to turn their weak made hands into bluffs, if you check then they can check back and expect to win at showdown some of the time, but if you bet, they will suspect that their hand isn't good, and its a pretty good board to jam into as my bet is pretty well defined, so im not sure betting and folding to a push is correct 100% of the time. Oppo dependant.

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JungleCat03
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« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2007, 02:34:12 AM »

I find when to value bet tricky boards such as the 2nd hand is one of the most difficult aspects of poker. It always seems like such a fine line. You bet and get raised and you're getting much improved pot odds with a strong hand but against a likely much tighter range whereas you check and you miss out on value against hands that will call some sort of bet.

I found playing lots of heads up games helped immensely in this as picking up lots of small pieces of value in these situations can be very important.

I think I'll stick to donkaments for now. One day I'll be good enough to for cash!
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« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2007, 04:52:20 AM »


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In poker, you dont always put your opponents on the one hand that is worst for you.. im not gonna structure my betting to assume 100% that he has a flush or straight draw, he also has pairs here, and i dont want to push him out the pot with everything he might hold... thats a fantastic way to minimize your equity in these spots.



but to do that you have to have some kind of a clue what the guy has or what hands he is likely to play in that situiation you carnt just hope he hasnt got it you got to see what hand he has and the best way of doing that givein the info u gave is his betting pattern   what your basicly saying is if im beat f** it if thats the case why bother to post?  if your sticking your money in no matter what why ask ?

you seem to be praying you got the best hand its to scarey a board to do that on sure on the flop your strong but u havent got the nutz on the turn u need to get in cheap to the river and make the pot as small as possible not as big as possible

thats just my view,  stu
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totalise
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« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2007, 05:02:28 AM »


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In poker, you dont always put your opponents on the one hand that is worst for you.. im not gonna structure my betting to assume 100% that he has a flush or straight draw, he also has pairs here, and i dont want to push him out the pot with everything he might hold... thats a fantastic way to minimize your equity in these spots.



but to do that you have to have some kind of a clue what the guy has or what hands he is likely to play in that situiation you carnt just hope he hasnt got it you got to see what hand he has and the best way of doing that givein the info u gave is his betting pattern   what your basicly saying is if im beat f** it if thats the case why bother to post?  if your sticking your money in no matter what why ask ?

you seem to be praying you got the best hand its to scarey a board to do that on sure on the flop your strong but u havent got the nutz on the turn u need to get in cheap to the river and make the pot as small as possible not as big as possible

thats just my view,  stu

poker hands are dynamic though, the entire thought process has to be able to change as different turn/river combinations come out... and I agree, betting and calling patterns are a great indicator of what they are likely to hold... but its not likely they are going to be calling preflop with hands that make a straight on that flop, but it is very likely they are calling with hands that are drawing either dead or to 2 outs on the flop. If the action preflop went like this: I raise, 3 people call, then yes I'd play the hand much different.... but it wasn't, so i didn't.

and as for this......

Quote
if your sticking your money in no matter what why ask ?

even if you are in a situation where you know your money is going in, its still a good question to ask as theres optimal ways to get the money  in (ie you have a draw and want to get your money in first to try and get folds, or if you have a marginal hand and you want to check and give them a chance to bluff)
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