Liverpool Fans - Worst in Europe

[turny]

thanks for the link kin a great read.

an awful chain of events, although this article has a biased side to the liverpool fans i think its been proven that west yorkshire police have staged a huge cover up throughout.

it is one where mistakes were made on all sides culminating in a horrendous and unneccessary loss of human life!

im just glad that we learnt so much from hillsborough and like to think that the memory of the 96 that died has helped to save many lives aroung the countries football grounds since.

RIP

[kinboshi]

thanks for the link kin a great read.

an awful chain of events, although this article has a biased side to the liverpool fans i think its been proven that west yorkshire police have staged a huge cover up throughout.

Yes, of course any source should be viewed with scepticism, but more than often, people believe what they read in the press (which is why I started this thread in the first place).

it is one where mistakes were made on all sides culminating in a horrendous and unneccessary loss of human life!

Yes, the organisation was shocking, and the cover-up that went on afterwards was disgusting and an insult to the 96 who died and their familes and friends.  What the s*n did after that is well known, and makes me angry - and whenever I hear or see Kelvin MacKenzie I have an unnatural feeling of violence towards the man sorry excuse for a human.

The other people to blame are the hooligans who had plagued football in England.  They were the ones who made the fences necessary - without which, the 96 would still be alive.

im just glad that we learnt so much from hillsborough and like to think that the memory of the 96 that died has helped to save many lives aroung the countries football grounds since.

RIP

We've learned a lot, and safety at grounds has definitely improved.  But why did it take so long?  This wasn't the first disaster at a football ground, and unfortunately it won't be the last.  Hopefully, the stadia in this country are far better now.

Interestingly enough, I think we should re-introduce standing in football grounds here.  Safe-standing areas (not like the terraces of old) can be perfectly safe, but improve the experience for the fans.  Like the ones at Dortmund:

Click to see full-size image.

If anyone has the time or the inclination, have a read of the report by the FSF with regards to standing at football matches.  Interesting reading, and made all the more interesting that a Hillsborough survivor has written the forward to the report.

It's a PDF file, and definitely worth a read:  http://www.fsf.org.uk/media/pdfs/safe-standing-report-web.pdf

You can read the foreward here if you don't want to download the whole report: http://tinyurl.com/2jgho4

[turny]

thanks mate will defo have a read later tonight when i have more time.

must agree i miss the old style terraces, it was all part of the thrill of going to a game.

the shed at chelsea was an awesome sight when packed full.

[Geo the Sarge]

I wasn't going to reply to this thread because I'm sure it will upset somebody/piss someone off.

I dont think that it is any coincidence that it always seems to be Liverpool fans that are involved in 'disasters'. Everytime it is apparently the police's fault,Uefa's fault,the ground's fault etc etc. Why dont Liverpool fans ever blame themselves??.

I dont think they are "the worst in europe" when it comes to hooliganism abroad or at home liverpool are hardly notorious for football violence.

Heysel was down to the behaviour of both sets of fans - absolutely no denying that.  The disaster itself wouldn't have happened had the stadium not been in the state it was, but that doesn't excuse the fan's behaviour one bit.  The Liverpool fans involved in what happened that day are definitely to blame.

If you're including Hillsborough in this, then yes you are wrong.

As tragic as Hillsborough indeed was, and the errors made by various authorities, surely the bottom line was that there were too many fans without tickets who had travelled and then attempted to get into the ground that started the whole debacle??

Geo

100% categorically no.

Read this:

http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/buildup1.shtm

Can't see how this article can be used as an argument against this.

I wouldn't expect an article by the Hillsborough Justice Campaign to highlight this as a contributory factor.

I remember a member of one group being interviewed shortly after and admitting they had travelled without tickets.

Geo

Read the facts in the reports.  Read about the inadequate turnstiles for the number of ticket holders going into the Leppings Lane end of the ground (where the Liverpool fans were).  Read about how the police opened the gates (and the Superintendent admitted that he lied when he said Liverpool fans kicked a door in to gain access).  Read about how there were no stewards or police to guide the crowds that were let in when they opened the gates - so they did what crowds do - and follow the flow, which was directly into the pen ahead (the pens either side of the central pen had plenty of room in them, just that no one was guided into them).  Read about how there was no one in charge of the police that day who had the necessary experience, and how he admitted he 'froze' when action was required.  Read about how people were left dying needing urgent medical attention that they didn't receive until it was too late.

But you want to blame it on some of the fans who'd had a bit to drink before an FA Cup semi-final?  Imagine that, people having a drink before a football match.  Criminals.  Oh, and the group who were interviewed - was that reported in the sun?

Take the blinkers off Dan.

I did read all of above, however was merely stating that mistakes were made from all sides. At no time was I ignoring the errors made by the various authorities. The interview I referred to was actually a TV interview, was disappointed that you would even think of me as a Sun reader btw.

Also

But you want to blame it on some of the fans who'd had a bit to drink before an FA Cup semi-final?  Imagine that, people having a drink before a football match.  Criminals.  Oh, and the group who were interviewed - was that reported in the sun?

Where on earth did I say that?

Your opening gambit was to post a good feature then ended with one word - Discuss.

Am merely discussing and do not require you to add to what you think I may have wrote.
Geo

[kinboshi]

I wasn't going to reply to this thread because I'm sure it will upset somebody/piss someone off.

I dont think that it is any coincidence that it always seems to be Liverpool fans that are involved in 'disasters'. Everytime it is apparently the police's fault,Uefa's fault,the ground's fault etc etc. Why dont Liverpool fans ever blame themselves??.

I dont think they are "the worst in europe" when it comes to hooliganism abroad or at home liverpool are hardly notorious for football violence.

Heysel was down to the behaviour of both sets of fans - absolutely no denying that.  The disaster itself wouldn't have happened had the stadium not been in the state it was, but that doesn't excuse the fan's behaviour one bit.  The Liverpool fans involved in what happened that day are definitely to blame.

If you're including Hillsborough in this, then yes you are wrong.

As tragic as Hillsborough indeed was, and the errors made by various authorities, surely the bottom line was that there were too many fans without tickets who had travelled and then attempted to get into the ground that started the whole debacle??

Geo

100% categorically no.

Read this:

http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/buildup1.shtm

Can't see how this article can be used as an argument against this.

I wouldn't expect an article by the Hillsborough Justice Campaign to highlight this as a contributory factor.

I remember a member of one group being interviewed shortly after and admitting they had travelled without tickets.

Geo

Read the facts in the reports.  Read about the inadequate turnstiles for the number of ticket holders going into the Leppings Lane end of the ground (where the Liverpool fans were).  Read about how the police opened the gates (and the Superintendent admitted that he lied when he said Liverpool fans kicked a door in to gain access).  Read about how there were no stewards or police to guide the crowds that were let in when they opened the gates - so they did what crowds do - and follow the flow, which was directly into the pen ahead (the pens either side of the central pen had plenty of room in them, just that no one was guided into them).  Read about how there was no one in charge of the police that day who had the necessary experience, and how he admitted he 'froze' when action was required.  Read about how people were left dying needing urgent medical attention that they didn't receive until it was too late.

But you want to blame it on some of the fans who'd had a bit to drink before an FA Cup semi-final?  Imagine that, people having a drink before a football match.  Criminals.  Oh, and the group who were interviewed - was that reported in the sun?

Take the blinkers off Dan.

I did read all of above, however was merely stating that mistakes were made from all sides. At no time was I ignoring the errors made by the various authorities. The interview I referred to was actually a TV interview, was hurt that you would even think of me as a Sun reader btw.

Geo

Seriously mate, no blinkers.  I have friends who were there.  I have read lots and lots, from varying sources about the day and what happened.  To say that the bottom line was that there were too many fans without tickets and that caused the  disaster is not only incorrect, but ridiculous.  That's why I thought you might have read about it in the s*n.

Like I said, there was space for the fans in the pens either side.  Why weren't the fans directed into these pens when the gates were opened?  Why were so many things wrong on that day?  If it was down to the fans without tickets, why did the police lie - and why were the rank and file officers instructed to lie in their statements and to the media?  Surely there'd be no need to lie if the police weren't at fault?

What about the people who were still alive after 3:45?  Many more could have been saved.  The bottom line is that those in charge messed up - enormously.

[Geo the Sarge]

Totally accept what you're saying Dan, and thoroughly enjoyed reading the link. Admit it may have been a bit strong in saying it was the bottom line and not merely an additional factor.

Geo

[kinboshi]

Totally accept what you're saying Dan, and thoroughly enjoyed reading the link. Admit it may have been a bit strong in saying it was the bottom line and not merely an additional factor.

Geo

Fair enough.  I'd say the alcohol was a factor - but they weren't any more drunk than football fans at any other semi-final.  The problem was that the whole focus of the police was on dealing with drunk and 'misbehaving' fans, rather than focusing on the safety of the fans as a whole.  That was the major contributing factor.  Safety was disregarded and the focus was on coming down hard on any trouble.

So in that sense, the hooligans throughout the 80s were truly to blame, that and the criminal negligence of those in charge on the day.

[kinboshi]

I wasn't going to reply to this thread because I'm sure it will upset somebody/piss someone off.

I dont think that it is any coincidence that it always seems to be Liverpool fans that are involved in 'disasters'. Everytime it is apparently the police's fault,Uefa's fault,the ground's fault etc etc. Why dont Liverpool fans ever blame themselves??.

I dont think they are "the worst in europe" when it comes to hooliganism abroad or at home liverpool are hardly notorious for football violence.

Heysel was down to the behaviour of both sets of fans - absolutely no denying that.  The disaster itself wouldn't have happened had the stadium not been in the state it was, but that doesn't excuse the fan's behaviour one bit.  The Liverpool fans involved in what happened that day are definitely to blame.

If you're including Hillsborough in this, then yes you are wrong.

As tragic as Hillsborough indeed was, and the errors made by various authorities, surely the bottom line was that there were too many fans without tickets who had travelled and then attempted to get into the ground that started the whole debacle??

Geo

100% categorically no.

Read this:

http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/buildup1.shtm

Can't see how this article can be used as an argument against this.

I wouldn't expect an article by the Hillsborough Justice Campaign to highlight this as a contributory factor.

I remember a member of one group being interviewed shortly after and admitting they had travelled without tickets.

Geo

Read the facts in the reports.  Read about the inadequate turnstiles for the number of ticket holders going into the Leppings Lane end of the ground (where the Liverpool fans were).  Read about how the police opened the gates (and the Superintendent admitted that he lied when he said Liverpool fans kicked a door in to gain access).  Read about how there were no stewards or police to guide the crowds that were let in when they opened the gates - so they did what crowds do - and follow the flow, which was directly into the pen ahead (the pens either side of the central pen had plenty of room in them, just that no one was guided into them).  Read about how there was no one in charge of the police that day who had the necessary experience, and how he admitted he 'froze' when action was required.  Read about how people were left dying needing urgent medical attention that they didn't receive until it was too late.

But you want to blame it on some of the fans who'd had a bit to drink before an FA Cup semi-final?  Imagine that, people having a drink before a football match.  Criminals.  Oh, and the group who were interviewed - was that reported in the sun?

Take the blinkers off Dan.

I did read all of above, however was merely stating that mistakes were made from all sides. At no time was I ignoring the errors made by the various authorities. The interview I referred to was actually a TV interview, was disappointed that you would even think of me as a Sun reader btw.

Also

But you want to blame it on some of the fans who'd had a bit to drink before an FA Cup semi-final?  Imagine that, people having a drink before a football match.  Criminals.  Oh, and the group who were interviewed - was that reported in the sun?

Where on earth did I say that?

Your opening gambit was to post a good feature then ended with one word - Discuss.

Am merely discussing and do not require you to add to what you think I may have wrote.
Geo

I think we had crossed-wires there.  The fans without tickets was to do with my original post about Athens.  I thought you were referring to Hillsborough, which is where the conversation had drifted on to.

Apologies for that.

[Acidmouse]

I didn't think it was still being debated why Hillsborough happened?

The police began to panic with the kick off looming and so many fans still outside;  so they forced people into the overcrowed sections of the stands. Anyone who supported football around those times knows how clueless the cops were.

[kinboshi]

I didn't think it was still being debated why Hillsborough happened?

The police began to panic with the kick off looming and so many fans still outside;  so they forced people into the overcrowed sections of the stands. Anyone who supported football around those times knows how clueless the cops were.

You'd be surprised, very surprised.  I nearly resorted to violence a few months back when a Celtic fan (who should know better) told me that what the s*n had printed MUST be based on truth, and therefore the Liverpool fans who were there were responsible for the 96 deaths - and blaming the police is looking for a scapegoat.

Fortunately for him, I managed to walk away before I did something he'd regret.

[Acidmouse]

The Sun printed full page apologies and took back what they had said about the fans being to blame, but I guess people forget this.

[Rod Paradise]

The Sun printed full page apologies and took back what they had said about the fans being to blame, but I guess people forget this.

The Editor at the time has since repeatedly criticised the appology & seems to be trying to make a career out of his infamy and by saying he was right. He still refuses to face up to any of the Justice for the 96 group though.

[kinboshi]

The Sun printed full page apologies and took back what they had said about the fans being to blame, but I guess people forget this.

There was no front-page apology for 'The Truth' - absolutely and categorically there was no apology on the scale of the blatant lies they told.

Kelvin McKenzie still stands by the filth he printed.  The BBC still pay him to appear on radio shows and he continues to peddle the lies that were told then.