Thoughts Please - (Crippling tournament hand)

[GlasgowBandit]

Well I ended up passing this hand, which I think may have been a mistake. 
The CL then started to raise every hand after this not bothering about his position and no matter the action taken before him, when he won a pot he continued to show hand after hand all premium hands, this leads me to suspect that he raised me with some sort of weak holding.  Why not show?
An orbit later I am holding and there where 5 limpers blinds at 600/1200 I limp in from the C/O this time CL is in SB and makes up BB Checks flop comes checks round to me I make a 5k bet this time leaving 10k behind - mistake?  I think I should maybe have pushed with Top and Bottom but I was looking to extract maximum value and get as many chips as possible only CL called this time and comes on the turn he checks again and I push he insta calls with AJo and spiked his T d on the river!  - So fecking sick!

I have a few issues with this, I don't understand why someone who has been so aggressive and raising most pots elects to make up the SB  rather than raise - he has shown before that he doesn't understand the benefit of position by raising and re-raising when OOP.  He hits part of the flop so why not bet? I was really confused, I'm not sure If still had the previous hand on my mind!

In hindsight which is a wonderful thing I suppose i should just push the flop take down the 8k or so thats in the pot?  But does he pass given the way he plays subsequent streets.

[Longy]

Well I ended up passing this hand, which I think may have been a mistake. 
The CL then started to raise every hand after this not bothering about his position and no matter the action taken before him, when he won a pot he continued to show hand after hand all premium hands, this leads me to suspect that he raised me with some sort of weak holding.  Why not show?
An orbit later I am holding and there where 5 limpers blinds at 600/1200 I limp in from the C/O this time CL is in SB and makes up BB Checks flop comes checks round to me I make a 5k bet this time leaving 10k behind - mistake?  I think I should maybe have pushed with Top and Bottom but I was looking to extract maximum value and get as many chips as possible only CL called this time and comes on the turn he checks again and I push he insta calls with AJo and spiked his T d on the river!  - So fecking sick!

I have a few issues with this, I don't understand why someone who has been so aggressive and raising most pots elects to make up the SB  rather than raise - he has shown before that he doesn't understand the benefit of position by raising and re-raising when OOP.  He hits part of the flop so why not bet? I was really confused, I'm not sure If still had the previous hand on my mind!

In hindsight which is a wonderful thing I suppose i should just push the flop take down the 8k or so thats in the pot?  But does he pass given the way he plays subsequent streets.

I would pass K4 preflop, it is a bit of a sod to play postflop. Firstly as we are dominated so often when we hit the king and are so short that we end up stacking off. Rarely is the 4 going to be anything but bottom pair and we don't exactly gain much value from that very often.

As played i think the 5k is fine, as you say getting value from your hand here is not a bad idea. With the idea of calling any shove and putting the rest in on any turn (maybe apart from a queen).

His call with aj in the sb, i don't think is that bad its not a great hand to be raising oop, as postflop it can be awkward. Obviously postflop he mangles his hand and you get what you want, getting in your chips a massive favourite, job done. Unfortunately the 10 is a sickner but be happy you got it in a big fave.

[GlasgowBandit]

Well I ended up passing this hand, which I think may have been a mistake. 
The CL then started to raise every hand after this not bothering about his position and no matter the action taken before him, when he won a pot he continued to show hand after hand all premium hands, this leads me to suspect that he raised me with some sort of weak holding.  Why not show?
An orbit later I am holding and there where 5 limpers blinds at 600/1200 I limp in from the C/O this time CL is in SB and makes up BB Checks flop comes checks round to me I make a 5k bet this time leaving 10k behind - mistake?  I think I should maybe have pushed with Top and Bottom but I was looking to extract maximum value and get as many chips as possible only CL called this time and comes on the turn he checks again and I push he insta calls with AJo and spiked his T d on the river!  - So fecking sick!

I have a few issues with this, I don't understand why someone who has been so aggressive and raising most pots elects to make up the SB  rather than raise - he has shown before that he doesn't understand the benefit of position by raising and re-raising when OOP.  He hits part of the flop so why not bet? I was really confused, I'm not sure If still had the previous hand on my mind!

In hindsight which is a wonderful thing I suppose i should just push the flop take down the 8k or so thats in the pot?  But does he pass given the way he plays subsequent streets.

I would pass K4 preflop, it is a bit of a sod to play postflop. Firstly as we are dominated so often when we hit the king and are so short that we end up stacking off. Rarely is the 4 going to be anything but bottom pair and we don't exactly gain much value from that very often.

As played i think the 5k is fine, as you say getting value from your hand here is not a bad idea. With the idea of calling any shove and putting the rest in on any turn (maybe apart from a queen).

His call with aj in the sb, i don't think is that bad its not a great hand to be raising oop, as postflop it can be awkward. Obviously postflop he mangles his hand and you get what you want, getting in your chips a massive favourite, job done. Unfortunately the 10 is a sickner but be happy you got it in a big fave.

I'd normally pass K 4 pre as well it was one of those err "value calls" hoping to hit err well 4 4 4. 

[MANTIS01]

I think the guy in the 1st hand is strong and you make a good fold.

The CL isn't going to flat call a big bet oop without a big hand here. The sb even tells him you have shown strength before. So his big dwell pre-flop is because he loves his hand and is happily deciding how to play it. He does not think you are stealing.....because he would raise....and he's not calling to catch a flop. He's calling here with strength.

The "who is it to go" comment is good info for you. I mean, if the guy was "considering" pushing he would be looking at you to help him decide. The fact he says that means he always planned to check-raise all-in. As CL he wouldn't be hesitant and uncertain about that move if he had anything other than strength....he would use his big stack confidently if he was weak or on a draw.

He knows you probably have to call and is acting uncertain....this is a big tell.

After the hand. Why doesn't he show? If he bullied you off that pot with nothing he shows...it gets him kudos. If he shows A-A however...you get all the kudos for the fold. His play looks much more powerful is he doesn't show his powerful hand, so he doesn't. I think that fold kept you in the tournament. Didn't need to be so expensive though.

[Royal Flush]

However, early doors I made a standard 3x BB raise when we where playing 150/300  when holding rockets and got 6 callers pre-flop. 

Happy days!

[GlasgowBandit]

However, early doors I made a standard 3x BB raise when we where playing 150/300  when holding rockets and got 6 callers pre-flop. 

Happy days!

It was actually, I managed to treble up  
But I can't help but feel sick sometimes with so many callers its just asking to be outdrawn

[Royal Flush]

However, early doors I made a standard 3x BB raise when we where playing 150/300  when holding rockets and got 6 callers pre-flop. 

Happy days!

It was actually, I managed to treble up  
But I can't help but feel sick sometimes with so many callers its just asking to be outdrawn

Funny i think of it as a chance to more than double....

[boldie]

I think the guy in the 1st hand is strong and you make a good fold.

The CL isn't going to flat call a big bet oop without a big hand here. The sb even tells him you have shown strength before. So his big dwell pre-flop is because he loves his hand and is happily deciding how to play it. He does not think you are stealing.....because he would raise....and he's not calling to catch a flop. He's calling here with strength.

The "who is it to go" comment is good info for you. I mean, if the guy was "considering" pushing he would be looking at you to help him decide. The fact he says that means he always planned to check-raise all-in. As CL he wouldn't be hesitant and uncertain about that move if he had anything other than strength....he would use his big stack confidently if he was weak or on a draw.

He knows you probably have to call and is acting uncertain....this is a big tell.

After the hand. Why doesn't he show? If he bullied you off that pot with nothing he shows...it gets him kudos. If he shows A-A however...you get all the kudos for the fold. His play looks much more powerful is he doesn't show his powerful hand, so he doesn't. I think that fold kept you in the tournament. Didn't need to be so expensive though.

wow Mantis...you don't know this tourney and (I am assuming it's the 30 freeze at Stanley, bandit?) make soo many assumptions in this one that it's frightening,

"After the hand. Why doesn't he show? If he bullied you off that pot with nothing he shows...it gets him kudos. If he shows A-A however...you get all the kudos for the fold. His play looks much more powerful is he doesn't show his powerful hand, so he doesn't. I think that fold kept you in the tournament. Didn't need to be so expensive though"

YIKES! This is a 30£ freezeout..do you really think CL thinks on this level when he keeps showing down premium hands later on? He keeps showing people they make good folds but against Bandit he didn't because that would give bandit some kudos?....I know the standard of play in Glasgow and Stanleys there quite well..I don't care who the BB/CL is here..he's not thinking this through this much


As much as you might be right for saying Bandit would be behind you are over thinking this wayyyyyyy too much.

[MANTIS01]

It is true that his thought process could be as basic as....Got Aces. Me Strong. Me act weak. But his actions are there to be interpreted anyway. I would interpret his actions the way I described to find a fold. He doesn't need to be a genius to act like this with a big hand and this is why his natural inclination would be to not show. His actions are more that of a dummy anyway....the big I am weak before pushing act. So while some opinions are to call for value my opinion would be to fold because you are probably behind. How else do we interpret the Cl's actions?? If the answer is we can't because he's just shit then there seems little point in the thread.

[Royal Flush]

It is true that his thought process could be as basic as....Got Aces. Me Strong. Me act weak. But his actions are there to be interpreted anyway. I would interpret his actions the way I described to find a fold. He doesn't need to be a genius to act like this with a big hand and this is why his natural inclination would be to not show. His actions are more that of a dummy anyway....the big I am weak before pushing act. So while some opinions are to call for value my opinion would be to fold because you are probably behind. How else do we interpret the Cl's actions?? If the answer is we can't because he's just shit then there seems little point in the thread.

I fold as well, but i don't give him credit for a big hand pre, in my experience players in a 30fo are far to stupid to even consider flatting pre with AA. Having said that i think you are nearly never good here, especially after his "is it on me"

[GlasgowBandit]

I think the guy in the 1st hand is strong and you make a good fold.

The CL isn't going to flat call a big bet oop without a big hand here. The sb even tells him you have shown strength before. So his big dwell pre-flop is because he loves his hand and is happily deciding how to play it. He does not think you are stealing.....because he would raise....and he's not calling to catch a flop. He's calling here with strength.

The "who is it to go" comment is good info for you. I mean, if the guy was "considering" pushing he would be looking at you to help him decide. The fact he says that means he always planned to check-raise all-in. As CL he wouldn't be hesitant and uncertain about that move if he had anything other than strength....he would use his big stack confidently if he was weak or on a draw.

He knows you probably have to call and is acting uncertain....this is a big tell.

After the hand. Why doesn't he show? If he bullied you off that pot with nothing he shows...it gets him kudos. If he shows A-A however...you get all the kudos for the fold. His play looks much more powerful is he doesn't show his powerful hand, so he doesn't. I think that fold kept you in the tournament. Didn't need to be so expensive though.

wow Mantis...you don't know this tourney and (I am assuming it's the 30 freeze at Stanley, bandit?) make soo many assumptions in this one that it's frightening,

"After the hand. Why doesn't he show? If he bullied you off that pot with nothing he shows...it gets him kudos. If he shows A-A however...you get all the kudos for the fold. His play looks much more powerful is he doesn't show his powerful hand, so he doesn't. I think that fold kept you in the tournament. Didn't need to be so expensive though"

YIKES! This is a 30£ freezeout..do you really think CL thinks on this level when he keeps showing down premium hands later on? He keeps showing people they make good folds but against Bandit he didn't because that would give bandit some kudos?....I know the standard of play in Glasgow and Stanleys there quite well..I don't care who the BB/CL is here..he's not thinking this through this much


As much as you might be right for saying Bandit would be behind you are over thinking this wayyyyyyy too much.

It was the Cincinnati £30 freeze out mate.

[boldie]

I think the guy in the 1st hand is strong and you make a good fold.

The CL isn't going to flat call a big bet oop without a big hand here. The sb even tells him you have shown strength before. So his big dwell pre-flop is because he loves his hand and is happily deciding how to play it. He does not think you are stealing.....because he would raise....and he's not calling to catch a flop. He's calling here with strength.

The "who is it to go" comment is good info for you. I mean, if the guy was "considering" pushing he would be looking at you to help him decide. The fact he says that means he always planned to check-raise all-in. As CL he wouldn't be hesitant and uncertain about that move if he had anything other than strength....he would use his big stack confidently if he was weak or on a draw.

He knows you probably have to call and is acting uncertain....this is a big tell.

After the hand. Why doesn't he show? If he bullied you off that pot with nothing he shows...it gets him kudos. If he shows A-A however...you get all the kudos for the fold. His play looks much more powerful is he doesn't show his powerful hand, so he doesn't. I think that fold kept you in the tournament. Didn't need to be so expensive though.

wow Mantis...you don't know this tourney and (I am assuming it's the 30 freeze at Stanley, bandit?) make soo many assumptions in this one that it's frightening,

"After the hand. Why doesn't he show? If he bullied you off that pot with nothing he shows...it gets him kudos. If he shows A-A however...you get all the kudos for the fold. His play looks much more powerful is he doesn't show his powerful hand, so he doesn't. I think that fold kept you in the tournament. Didn't need to be so expensive though"

YIKES! This is a 30£ freezeout..do you really think CL thinks on this level when he keeps showing down premium hands later on? He keeps showing people they make good folds but against Bandit he didn't because that would give bandit some kudos?....I know the standard of play in Glasgow and Stanleys there quite well..I don't care who the BB/CL is here..he's not thinking this through this much


As much as you might be right for saying Bandit would be behind you are over thinking this wayyyyyyy too much.

It was the Cincinnati £30 freeze out mate.

ah..slightly better quality of player then but only slightly

[bhoywonder]

the difference in standards between the two clubs amazes me really......

just my tuppence worth


oh and Bandit

just a thought but the other nite i was in a tourney and raised it up preflop to a total of 2000...the blinds had just gone up to 300/600.....so a tad over 3 times the standard ( cant remember what i had )

but a few noobs at the table verbally stated ...'wow big raise there '

point is you can tone down the size of your preflop raises at higher blinds levels regardless of stack sizes,as i find noobs lay down to even min raise steals.

[cooker3]

I couldn't care less what table average raise is. I have my standard raise and I stick to it. Much better to make it 3k or even less. 6 is way too excessive
On the flop, I'm not folding although I'm not liking it

[NumptyITB]

An orbit later I am holding and there where 5 limpers blinds at 600/1200 I limp in from the C/O this time

Two Words:   Chip Leakage