TURBO 18 man SNG

[Longy]

lol at the limp
Bandit, those rags are fine for shoving, you want live cards if you get called

Explain the problem with limping here please. Everybody says lol, nobody gives any form of reason.

The guy has made it clear that he wants to cash. Limping with the idea of calling or coming over the top to any raise is the surest way of achieving his goal.

If he shoves everyone folds who's behind him and he's probably 60 40 to win a crappy little pot consisting of a small blind + half a big blind.

That's costing him 12 big blinds to win f**k all when he's only getting called if he's beat or 50 50.

Shoving in these situations is intended to make everyone fold to pick up the blinds. You've got a good hand 3 handed and you want to scare everyone off. Give someone a chance to bluff then take their chips.

I can't see any merit in shoving. Raise it yes but shoving won't achieve anything that a good raise won't.

Firstly shoving is definitley +ev, in fact i shove alot wider than this on the bubble as ppls calling ranges are so tight.

Lol at limp/calling your stack off when you are so rarely ahead, even donks at this level are raise/shoving tight as its the bubble. Taking a flip or close to one on the bubble is like burning money.

Raising leads to 2 situations i hate which shoving doesn''t.

1. We get 3 bet by a hand that has us crushed and we call off our stack behind villians range, horrid ev wise. Or fold and have given up our chip lead and our bubble pawning rights (which is worth a tonne).

2. We get called and face a number of flops which we hate with shallow stacks, remember our opponents have stacks with less than 12bbs or the same

This really is an ICM situation and has been discussed ad nausem on other internet sites for years, i guarentee if we posted this hand on 2p2, 90%+ would say shove.

[Boba Fett]

Limping is bad, especially here

[EvilPie]

Raising leads to 2 situations i hate which shoving doesn''t.

1. We get 3 bet by a hand that has us crushed and we call off our stack behind villians range, horrid ev wise. Or fold and have given up our chip lead and our bubble pawning rights (which is worth a tonne).

2. We get called and face a number of flops which we hate with shallow stacks, remember our opponents have stacks with less than 12bbs or the same

This really is an ICM situation and has been discussed ad nausem on other internet sites for years, i guarentee if we posted this hand on 2p2, 90%+ would say shove.

1. Surely if we shove we also get called by a hand that has us crushed?

2. Yes we might hate many flops but my point was that we shove any flop. The only hands that can call us are hands which likely have the bb beaten. As the OP was looking to make the money then this is achieved here as the bb gets ko'd even if we lose.

I'm just interested in opinions here. I know all this is very negative but I'm just wondering if it might achieve the op's goal of cashing.

FWIW I'd have shoved AJ without any thought and lost to the AK. I wouldn't be bothered that the BB is short and sitting out. AJ is a good hand 3 handed and I'd be all in and losing 

[Longy]

1. The risk reward (icm) of getting called by a hand compared to what we make everytime they fold makes more in the longterm.

[EvilPie]

1. The risk reward (icm) of getting called by a hand compared to what we make everytime they fold makes more in the longterm.

But if you've got AJ 3 handed do you really want everyone to fold so that you pick up the blinds?

Surely there's potential to make a bit more if you can induce the bluff. I know it carries risk if everyone flats but if that's the case you can escape if necessary. Anyone with a weak ace is likely to shove but less likely to call our shove. Any low pairs are likely to shove but again less likely to call (possibly a good thing but I like 50 50 's). In this case against AK we're screwed no matter what but I can't help thinking that there's better ways of making money against worse hands than ours.

Maybe A10 down to A8 can call us but other than that the only calls we get have us screwed. We may get lucky and get called by KJ KQ etc. but again they're more likely to shove than call.

Shoving seems like a waste of a good hand.

[Longy]

1. The risk reward (icm) of getting called by a hand compared to what we make everytime they fold makes more in the longterm.

But if you've got AJ 3 handed do you really want everyone to fold so that you pick up the blinds?

Surely there's potential to make a bit more if you can induce the bluff. I know it carries risk if everyone flats but if that's the case you can escape if necessary. Anyone with a weak ace is likely to shove but less likely to call our shove. Any low pairs are likely to shove but again less likely to call (possibly a good thing but I like 50 50 's). In this case against AK we're screwed no matter what but I can't help thinking that there's better ways of making money against worse hands than ours.

Maybe A10 down to A8 can call us but other than that the only calls we get have us screwed. We may get lucky and get called by KJ KQ etc. but again they're more likely to shove than call.

Shoving seems like a waste of a good hand.

This arguement is going in circles now and im tempted to just refer you to my previous post of why i dislike the other options.

I would  raise 2.5x here with aa and kk possibly qq as that would be a waste of a good hand. Aj is not a premium hand, bandit hasn't given the stacks but getting involved in any tricky spots on the bubble is just horrid. No player in the world has a big enough edge 12bbs or less deep here to counteract the fact making a mistake post flop would be disastrous.

FPS is not for sngs or 18 mans (which unlike mtts rely on an very non linear payout structure where icm is a big factor) this has been borne of dare i say millions of sng sample sizes by better players than you or me.

[EvilPie]

Circle stopped. 

I agree that limping is bad I was interested to know if it might have any merit in this particular circumstance being on the bubble with a sat out player all in.

Is there any merit in folding to keep the BB around for a bit longer?

With our big stack on the bubble we can then push the others around a bit as they will hopefully be looking to cash.

Why knock a man out who can't do you any damage but could help you bully others?

Just another thought to throw in to the mix.

[Longy]

There are situations in sngs where an "action" limp is not a bad play. Though never with the chip lead. Something like a situation like this

4 handed blinds 200/400 no ante

Hero Utg 3000
Btn        2000
Sb         7500
BB          500

We are dealt something like aj/77 here we limp as our hand is strong and bb is very short should stack off with atc. What we don't want to happen is for him to double through the sb. Or even worse we shove and sb calls us and bb passes and we bubble.

So we action limp to tell sb our hand is strong with a view to bursting the bubble.

It is kind of a controversial subject in sngs but i can see its merit.

[MANTIS01]

Posted by: EvilPie

2. Yes we might hate many flops but my point was that we shove any flop.

If you do this you win precisely the same as shoving pre-flop and so it is an unconvincing argument for not shoving pre-flop.

Posted by: EvilPie

Explain the problem with limping here please. Everybody says lol, nobody gives any form of reason.

This is a short-handed turbo event. Understand your opponents mentality in this sort of thing. The other players will be pushing at will throughout the event and will be facing a lot of pushes themselves. When you push with A-J it will look like any standard push....a 3-handed CL bubble-blind-stealing exercise if you like, and the bet will be called by lots of hands you have crushed. The bb will not be bullied with A-rag and will snap-call. Alternatively, if you limp, you will look like you have A-A and you will not get any action or win any more money unless you are beat. All-in disguises the strength of your hand whereas limping reveals it. Tricky and cunning slow-play trap maneuvers don't work well in 3-handed turbos. Your oppos see no reason why the CL shouldn't raise, and that is the flaw in the strat.

Reason 2. The bb will push any draw on the flop and you will often have to fold the best hand. Position is less important in a shallow 3-handed turbo.