Can I bet the river here?

[david3103]

Not my usual style and possibly more appropriate in the Learning Centre, but I'm developing a thick skin 

http://www.holdemmanager.net
NL Holdem $0.20(BB) Betfair Game#448057084

david3103 ($12.26)
lalinea ($18.97)
bdfhad ($29.45)
greed ($1.79)
niksvan ($28.60)

david3103 posts (SB) $0.10
lalinea posts (BB) $0.20

Dealt to david3103
call, fold, fold,
david3103 raises to $0.40  Min raise had been enough on a couple of earlier orbits, plus I figure that 36s is a good hand to trap with if I hit the flop hard

call, call,

FLOP ($1.20)
david3103 bets $0.90 Mistake #1?
lalinea folds    -   good
bdfhad calls $0.90     -    Not so good

TURN ($3)
david3103 bets $3  -   Maybe I can rep the A? or the flush, is betting the pot enough?
bdfhad calls $3     -    apparently not

RIVER ($9)

david3103 - - now what? I've bet like I had a strong hand from the flop onwards, checking looks like a guaranteed lose...

[pokerfan]

looks like a push to me

[mondatoo]

Do you min raise a lot pre and with different holdings, if not then maybe not at this level but against better players they will pick up on this.

I think i would give it up.He doesn't look like he's going anywhere whatever you do, and sometimes it's just better to minimise your losses than to always try and bluff at a pot that in some cases you just aren't going to get it through,imo of course.

[gatso]

 Min raise had been enough on a couple of earlier orbits, plus I figure that 36s is a good hand to trap with if I hit the flop hard

this is just lol.

you're justifying a bad play by saying you might get lucky with it occasionally. save yourself money and stop minraising with junk.

do you also min raise with 72, T4, 23, 38 and justify it in the same way?

now read what you actually wrote. Min raise had been enough on a couple of earlier orbits. so you raised with the intention of taking down the pot there and then or plus I figure that 36s is a good hand to trap with if I hit the flop hard. neither of the things you were looking to happen when you raised happened so why are you still pissing money away in this pot? you made a mistake pf but at least you did it for a reason. once the plan has failed don't compound it by throwing the rest of your stack away

[david3103]

 Min raise had been enough on a couple of earlier orbits, plus I figure that 36s is a good hand to trap with if I hit the flop hard

this is just lol.

you're justifying a bad play by saying you might get lucky with it occasionally. save yourself money and stop minraising with junk.

do you also min raise with 72, T4, 23, 38 and justify it in the same way?

now read what you actually wrote. Min raise had been enough on a couple of earlier orbits. so you raised with the intention of taking down the pot there and then or plus I figure that 36s is a good hand to trap with if I hit the flop hard. neither of the things you were looking to happen when you raised happened so why are you still pissing money away in this pot? you made a mistake pf but at least you did it for a reason. once the plan has failed don't compound it by throwing the rest of your stack away

Glad I amused you - at least some good came from it

I never hardly ever raise pre with junk.

158 pf raises this month from SB (10.2%) and none of them profitable enough to make up for the losses on the speculative moves that I decided to follow through.

I realised after I read a couple of replies that probably the better way of answering my question here would have been to post it from Villain's perspective.

I have plugged the worst of my leak from the blinds, despite hands like this one!

[bolt pp]

 Min raise had been enough on a couple of earlier orbits, plus I figure that 36s is a good hand to trap with if I hit the flop hard

this is just lol.

you're justifying a bad play by saying you might get lucky with it occasionally. save yourself money and stop minraising with junk.

do you also min raise with 72, T4, 23, 38 and justify it in the same way?

now read what you actually wrote. Min raise had been enough on a couple of earlier orbits. so you raised with the intention of taking down the pot there and then or plus I figure that 36s is a good hand to trap with if I hit the flop hard. neither of the things you were looking to happen when you raised happened so why are you still pissing money away in this pot? you made a mistake pf but at least you did it for a reason. once the plan has failed don't compound it by throwing the rest of your stack away

I disagree, (when i say this i dont mean to have a pop or be at all disparaging to OP) but on Every level this hand, (the way you played/approached it) is so horrible you may as well shove the rest in and hope he mangles the hand worse thatn you and folds!

firsty please forget the min raise, it's weak and a horrible way of coming into a pot.

min raise had been good enough

for what? it's not a tourney, you dont have to blind steal and with a holding like this you WANT as many people in the pot to help with the pot odds, you're the one gambling here and needs to connect  (unless for example you're playing at a different level and say super agg on a weak table and are looking to isolate players pre from pos and c-bet them to death) but that's not the case here, this is micro level poker where you should  ONLY being playing hands like this in UNRAISED pots from the blinds and maybe late if you've got limpers before you to help give the odds to play but that would still be dependent on what your post flop play is like and the table dynamic(though at this level table dynamic could be...crazy.......weak whatever you like but ultimately shit)!, if you're not so confident about playing flops then playing hands like this is gonna get you in a lot of trouble(and at this level it's sooooooooooooooooooooo unnecessary)

you dont really give any info on your oppo's but getting two customers here FORGET c-betting this flop, it's so draw heavy, you should check and see if you can get to the turn for free, facing any sort of reasonable sized bet you should be check folding(to a reasonable sized bet) here 100% of the time.

Please DONT chase dead money! just stick to playing premiums at these small stakes, you'll find doing anything else hugely -EV

couple of other things.........maybe i can rep the A, or the flush, is betting the pot enough

theres two different lines here and as a rule mate a bluff doesn't always have to involve you getting your shovel out and chucking huge piles of cash into a pot whilst screaming"ffs you idiot look how much i'm betting, please dont call"!

If you had the Ace on such a scary board pot control would be the primary line and betting the pot to build it to equate to more than your own stack is not what you want to be doing and although betting the pot to get maximum value for your flush if you had it is o.k your oppo is probably just looking at whatever shit he's got in his hand and isnt overly interested in what you're trying to "rep" combined with the fact he may also have a genuine hand here this was a horrible spot to fire again.

DO NOT attempt to bluff players at these levels, you dont need to, you wont be able to and can accept that now or crack on and learn it the hard/expensive way.

If you want to make money at micro levels mate, forget trying to range you oppos, playing position, and moving people off of pots, it's all about patients, patients, patients!

gl to you

[Longy]

Good post Bolt.

The min raise pre is really bad, if you insist on isolation the limper make it at least a $1. I would rather do this in postion from the button/cutoff, min raising is just creating multiway action. I find it hard to believe that you were taking down pots AFTER utg had limped by min raising.

I just give it up at every stage post flop, the board just hit villian's range too much. If you are going to bluff in these spots you are better doing it on dry boards, where there are no draws to chase.

[gatso]

once the plan has failed don't compound it by throwing the rest of your stack away

I disagree, (when i say this i dont mean to have a pop or be at all disparaging to OP) but on Every level this hand, (the way you played/approached it) is so horrible you may as well shove the rest in and hope he mangles the hand worse thatn you and folds!

[/quote]

bolty, I'm not referring to the river in the part you boldened (good word huh?), I'm talking about on the flop. op had a bad plan, it failed completely so now's the time to give up with a small loss. once we get to the river it might be worth just chucking the rest in, it'll probs be the best move we've made in the whole hand, but the important thing is never to get to this stage in the first place.

in hands like this an analysis of the river is pretty pointless, we analyse our hands to learn so we can play better in the same or similar positions in the future. in this case there's no need to do that, just never get into this position again

[david3103]

whew

Thanks to all - you're right, of course you are. I knew you would be, and knew I'd made a pig's ear out of this.

I compounded the error, as I 'm sure you knew I would have, and shoved on the river

He called and obviously beat me,  delivering the coup de grace.

I've had a really good month which could have been so much better without spewy hands like this.



There's a small part of my head still thinking - 'If I'd got into this pot with Q4o and been bet at on all three streets, Would I call with 2ndpair 4 kicker, and then 3rd pair, 4 kicker with a flush draw against me to boot....'

ah well - one hand amongst many


thanks again

[GreekStein]

At these stakes its probably more profitable to make hands and get paid because often many of your opponents wont pass (especially once they've called two streets!) but they will happily stack off full over and over again with TP-big kicker type hands. When he calls the turn in this pot there dont seem to be many hands that he's gonna pass on the river, a marvellously played Q4 off..hmm.

A proper raise pre and he probably isnt in there with that trash though

[anthonyl]

do not make plays at these stakes!!! stick to ABC poker