What do you think of this shove?

[Sweetman]

Hi guys,

This is the first hand history Ive posted, basically after the tournament I discussed this hand with my mate, and we had differing views, I'm interested to find out other opinions on it.

Live MTT £50 freezeout, Walsall, 15k starting chips.

History - Villain is very loose aggressive player, has often folded to a 4bet shove after bluff 3 betting the flop. Has shown down rivered gutshots/backdoor flushes so is capable of bluffing and double barrelling with 2 overs, a gutshot or air.

level 3, 13k effective stacks, blinds are 100-200, no ante.

villain limps in MP after an UTG limper

two more limpers join the party before I raise on the button to 1200 with: 



SB and BB fold as does the UTG limper, villain calls the 1200 and the other two limpers both fold.

Flop comes:

 

Villain checks

I bet 1300 into a 3300 pot

Villain re-raises to 3800

I'm pretty much 100% sure I have the best hand and know he interprets my small bet as a weak C-Bet and without even much consideration I ship in my remaining 10.5K

Villain insta-mucks

I win the pot, but couldn't help thinking about other lines I could've taken to make more money.

If I'm sure I have the villain beaten, why am I shipping it in? Hes always folding air/overcards and maybe hands I can extract value from (88, 99, 77, 66) and always calling with AJ, and QQ+ (hands that have me crushed)

Would flatting be a better option? but I just wanna vomit if a Queen King or Ace hit the turn.  Flatting would be okay if I'm sure hes gonna stab again on the turn, but if he checks the turn to me; then I gave away a free card away with no gain.

Please give me some ideas to other lines I could've taken to maximise my EV in this hand.



Regards,


Ben.

[AlexMartin]

the pot is like 9k total. Shipping is 100% fine, effective double up nice and easy right now while u know where u are imo. Too many revolting overcards and low connecting cards capable of dropping, dont get greedy (for the extra 5k of a true doubleup).

[MANTIS01]

Was this last night? Did the guy chatter incessantly about Nintendo Wii the whole time? Were you the guy who got quad 9's vs lol 7-2 shove?

[GreekStein]

the pot is like 9k total. Shipping is 100% fine, effective double up nice and easy right now while u know where u are imo. Too many revolting overcards and low connecting cards capable of dropping, dont get greedy (for the extra 5k of a true doubleup).

this. Though this becomes a much tougher spot against a villain who isn't quite so spewy

[Sweetman]

Was this last night? Did the guy chatter incessantly about Nintendo Wii the whole time? Were you the guy who got quad 9's vs lol 7-2 shove?

Bingo! which guy were you? The guy who the same villain three-outered with AQ against your AK?

[MANTIS01]

Was this last night? Did the guy chatter incessantly about Nintendo Wii the whole time? Were you the guy who got quad 9's vs lol 7-2 shove?

Bingo! which guy were you? The guy who the same villain three-outered with AQ against your AK?

OK buddy. Well if that's the case I'd forget about this hand very quickly, because you played it perfectly. Getting max value for the hand and getting all your chips in are not one in the same thing. You plain & simple got the max value, so there's nothing more you can do. Your question about why ship with the best hand is obv a good one, but the reason you do this is because the guy never puts another penny into this pot unless he beats you. And because of what Alex posted.

The guy is obv all over the place strat-wise, he has the right idea but he can't manage to translate that into a believable strat. When he triples the bet on a dry board he tells everyone in the building he has air. I like him. But in spite of all his jibba jabba and his apparent spewyness he's still pretty card smart and not totally blind. I think his small degree of skill lies with putting people on hands and using aggression to expose weakness. So if you did smooth call his raise here what would he put you on? You raise pre and c-bet on a rainbow 4-5-J board. At that point the guy thinks A-K or whatever so tries his standard move. If you then call this big bet the guy knows you have a genuine hand, you're not going anywhere, and he's got nada. So he will never bluff the turn. By calling here you take significant risk for absolutely no reward and that is never a good line to take.

Forget the hands you play well and be more concerned about the hands you play badly. The hand you played the previous Sunday where you held 9-10o and donked all your chips away is one that springs to mind. You played that hand like an idiot, and you're clearly not an idiot. 

And yes, I'm the guy who runs like a cripple

[Sweetman]

Ah yes, that 9T on Sunday was extremely spewey especially against that particular opponent.

The thing that got me confused in that hand was the fact that I didnt think the flop/turn bettor was the preflop aggressor, so I didnt consider an over pair till the turn.

Either way, I butchered the hand.  I was tilting after my set over set exit earlier from Stoke.

Thanks for your replies mate, no doubt Ill post up some more for dissection later.

[MC]

I guess the problem with the shove is you're only getting called if you're beat.

However, you can't give a free card here and too much chance you're ahead so shove seems correct...

[Sweetman]

I guess the problem with the shove is you're only getting called if you're beat.

However, you can't give a free card here and too much chance you're ahead so shove seems correct...

This is exactly the train of thought that made me post the question, when it happened it was pretty much an automatic action.

I suppose the factor that makes the shove correct, is the amount in the pot when I shoved (ie big enough to take down there and then).