Bring back borstal!

[Geo the Sarge]

i have always been a fan of service to the nation rather than national service

for a period of 12-18 months as soon as a person leaves full time education they should be required to serve the community they are expect to leave it
this will give them some sort of belonging to the community

it doesnt need to be a military style service but NHS, firemen, councils forestry,coast guard, charities etc etc

maybe 12-18 months full time or 2-3 years part time

Ideally mate, yes. It's getting them to the mindset and standard that they could perform these tasks well

Geo

[Geo the Sarge]

I thought it was nonsense, the Mrs enjoyed it and was calling for Borstal to be brought back.  Although she has never ever been in trouble, never known anyone who has been in trouble and wouldn't know what to do if  there was trouble. 

I think there are many measures that should be taken before Borstal.    I'd start by overhaullng the justice system, relooking at what discipline mesures can be handed out to schools.  Tougher parenting.

I disagree

Maybe the program itself isn't fantastic but the idea of this is a good one
My idea is ...and I have said for years

That youngsters between the ages of 16-25 should be put on a three strike rule third strike and they have to do between 1-3 years national service depending on age/nature of crimes
 

why limit it to youngsters?

oh yeah, because 'the youth of today' are fkn terrible etc etc, that old, tired trope.

the same trope that's been wheeled out to explain all sorts of societal ails for generations.

Not really sure what to reply to this.

My intentions would be to install discipline into the younger generation to give them a better start in life
Wouldn't really be the same for a 40 year old drug using shoplifter !

if that's your intention, then prevention >>>>>>>>> cure

Please allow us the pleasure of your wisdom and enlighten us with some possible solutions.

Geo

don't have solutions - my point (albeit not spectacularly expressed) was that every single generation thinks 'the kids' are bad etc etc and fundamentally they aren't much different (once you account for big societal change in general, I mean).

if you're going with three strikes and it's national service for you, my lad, then you've already lost. as Tighty points out you have to start way earlier with parenting and education. I'm neither an educator nor a parent, so I don't claim to be decent at advising anyone on either, but I'm pretty sure that making the formative years more positive solves way more 'youth problems' than running round some fields carrying a gun.

as for the idea of national service, something similar to what Ironside suggests is very common (and I think still mandatory, actually...) in Germany and works rather well in groups that are already integrated into society. For those that aren't, where there's no social cohesion, they already lost and these types of schemes aren't as successful.

And this is what we want to put right. Good people will always go on to perform duties to the community, whether that be through work or whatever. We want to work on those who don't.

Think I also made it clear I was against National Service as a solution

Geo

[Ironside]

i have always been a fan of service to the nation rather than national service

for a period of 12-18 months as soon as a person leaves full time education they should be required to serve the community they are expect to leave it
this will give them some sort of belonging to the community

it doesnt need to be a military style service but NHS, firemen, councils forestry,coast guard, charities etc etc

maybe 12-18 months full time or 2-3 years part time

Ideally mate, yes. It's getting them to the mindset and standard that they could perform these tasks well

Geo

its also getting them to believe the community includes them
too many people grow up nowadays feeling excluded because everything is seemingly controlled by people of our generation and even older like tikays generation

[Geo the Sarge]

i have always been a fan of service to the nation rather than national service

for a period of 12-18 months as soon as a person leaves full time education they should be required to serve the community they are expect to leave it
this will give them some sort of belonging to the community

it doesnt need to be a military style service but NHS, firemen, councils forestry,coast guard, charities etc etc

maybe 12-18 months full time or 2-3 years part time

Ideally mate, yes. It's getting them to the mindset and standard that they could perform these tasks well

Geo

its also getting them to believe the community includes them
too many people grow up nowadays feeling excluded because everything is seemingly controlled by people of our generation and even older like tikays generation

Great post buddy

Geo

[Ironside]

the youth club in my village closed down

the reason

parents were expected to help out once a month, but they got that used to using the youth club as a babysitter while they went off and did a weekly shop or nipped round to a friends for "come dine with me" most weeks it was just a couple of non parent volunteers in the building meaning alot of the activities had no supervisor so weren't put on and the PARENTS complained as they had paid there £1/2 for youth club and the kids were getting bored as there wasn't enough for them to do. so the organisers pulled the plug and now the kids miss out and the parents wont admit it was there fault

[TightEnd]

schooling and parenting

Agreed, however how do you "teach" parenting. As already said, it's not always down to bad parenting, have experienced many cases where a youngster has went off the rails even though they had good parents. I've also experienced a lot of cases where my thoughts were why was this individual even allowed to become a parent.

borstal, imo, looks only to reinforce the problems these guys have. surrounds them with similar

Agreed again, when we use the term Borstal we think along the lines of what Borstal used to be, however currently we have young offenders institutes where youngsters can participate in very limited subjects and only if they wish to participate. What we currently have is in effect Borstal with far less of the nastiness of staff but with less opportunities.

if there is no access to proper schooling and parenting, which there often isn't, then start the process there (a long long term approach needed)

Why would there be no access to proper schooling?

re the last point

Bad and failing schools..underfunded for the vocational stuff that might appeal to non-academic kids

[Geo the Sarge]

schooling and parenting

Agreed, however how do you "teach" parenting. As already said, it's not always down to bad parenting, have experienced many cases where a youngster has went off the rails even though they had good parents. I've also experienced a lot of cases where my thoughts were why was this individual even allowed to become a parent.

borstal, imo, looks only to reinforce the problems these guys have. surrounds them with similar

Agreed again, when we use the term Borstal we think along the lines of what Borstal used to be, however currently we have young offenders institutes where youngsters can participate in very limited subjects and only if they wish to participate. What we currently have is in effect Borstal with far less of the nastiness of staff but with less opportunities.

if there is no access to proper schooling and parenting, which there often isn't, then start the process there (a long long term approach needed)

Why would there be no access to proper schooling?

re the last point

Bad and failing schools..underfunded for the vocational stuff that might appeal to non-academic kids

Yep I understand now

Geo

[Kmac84]

Some very good points raised by Geo and Ironside. 

Geo your point in particular aboutthe underfunding of school sports/vocational opportunities is one that gets in my craw.  Especially for state schools.  The fact that places like George Watson, Fettes, St. Aloysius, Hutchy Grammar etc are awarded charitable status and pay less in rates than Castlemilk High, Drumchapel High, Westerhailes Education Centre etc are greatly underfunded and pay more in rates than the private boys. 

St. Aloysius' College is in Garnethill in Glasgow City Cente but they have playing fields in the east of the city which are private the boys are bussed in for Rugby and the Girls for hockey but the local kids aren't afforded the opportunity to play on these grounds when they mostly lie empty.   

There is a class issue as well as a social issue at play here.