Bring back borstal!

[leethefish]

Was wondering if many people saw this last night and thoughts on it are.

I really enjoyed the programme and as much as I understand they can't replicate it exactly as there would be uproar, I thought it was very good.
It also reminded me a little bit of basic training

[Kmac84]

I thought it was nonsense, the Mrs enjoyed it and was calling for Borstal to be brought back.  Although she has never ever been in trouble, never known anyone who has been in trouble and wouldn't know what to do if  there was trouble. 

I think there are many measures that should be taken before Borstal.    I'd start by overhaullng the justice system, relooking at what discipline mesures can be handed out to schools.  Tougher parenting.

[leethefish]

I thought it was nonsense, the Mrs enjoyed it and was calling for Borstal to be brought back.  Although she has never ever been in trouble, never known anyone who has been in trouble and wouldn't know what to do if  there was trouble. 

I think there are many measures that should be taken before Borstal.    I'd start by overhaullng the justice system, relooking at what discipline mesures can be handed out to schools.  Tougher parenting.

I disagree

Maybe the program itself isn't fantastic but the idea of this is a good one
My idea is ...and I have said for years

That youngsters between the ages of 16-25 should be put on a three strike rule third strike and they have to do between 1-3 years national service depending on age/nature of crimes
 

[mulhuzz]

I thought it was nonsense, the Mrs enjoyed it and was calling for Borstal to be brought back.  Although she has never ever been in trouble, never known anyone who has been in trouble and wouldn't know what to do if  there was trouble. 

I think there are many measures that should be taken before Borstal.    I'd start by overhaullng the justice system, relooking at what discipline mesures can be handed out to schools.  Tougher parenting.

I disagree

Maybe the program itself isn't fantastic but the idea of this is a good one
My idea is ...and I have said for years

That youngsters between the ages of 16-25 should be put on a three strike rule third strike and they have to do between 1-3 years national service depending on age/nature of crimes
 

why limit it to youngsters?

oh yeah, because 'the youth of today' are fkn terrible etc etc, that old, tired trope.

the same trope that's been wheeled out to explain all sorts of societal ails for generations.

[leethefish]

I thought it was nonsense, the Mrs enjoyed it and was calling for Borstal to be brought back.  Although she has never ever been in trouble, never known anyone who has been in trouble and wouldn't know what to do if  there was trouble. 

I think there are many measures that should be taken before Borstal.    I'd start by overhaullng the justice system, relooking at what discipline mesures can be handed out to schools.  Tougher parenting.

I disagree

Maybe the program itself isn't fantastic but the idea of this is a good one
My idea is ...and I have said for years

That youngsters between the ages of 16-25 should be put on a three strike rule third strike and they have to do between 1-3 years national service depending on age/nature of crimes
 

why limit it to youngsters?

oh yeah, because 'the youth of today' are fkn terrible etc etc, that old, tired trope.

the same trope that's been wheeled out to explain all sorts of societal ails for generations.

Not really sure what to reply to this.

My intentions would be to install discipline into the younger generation to give them a better start in life
Wouldn't really be the same for a 40 year old drug using shoplifter !

[Geo the Sarge]

I thought it was nonsense, the Mrs enjoyed it and was calling for Borstal to be brought back.  Although she has never ever been in trouble, never known anyone who has been in trouble and wouldn't know what to do if  there was trouble. 

I think there are many measures that should be taken before Borstal.    I'd start by overhaullng the justice system, relooking at what discipline mesures can be handed out to schools.  Tougher parenting.

I disagree

Maybe the program itself isn't fantastic but the idea of this is a good one
My idea is ...and I have said for years

That youngsters between the ages of 16-25 should be put on a three strike rule third strike and they have to do between 1-3 years national service depending on age/nature of crimes
 

why limit it to youngsters?

oh yeah, because 'the youth of today' are fkn terrible etc etc, that old, tired trope.

the same trope that's been wheeled out to explain all sorts of societal ails for generations.

Doubt that was Lees thinking, merely that a project of this nature would only work at an early age.

I don't go with the national service idea but certainly some sort of disciplinary system would have a better chance of success.

As for the older generations I would say stronger sentencing is required without all of this 1/3rd or 1/2 sentence then out on license malarkey.

Educate the youngsters, deter the elders.

In my experience a lot of these kids just need a parental figure/environment. I do understand that there are a lot of kids from decent backgrounds also end up in trouble but again usually due to parenting not being strong enough.

There'll be calls for punishing the parents for their children's behaviour, however not all parents of bad children are bad parents.

Geo

[mulhuzz]

I thought it was nonsense, the Mrs enjoyed it and was calling for Borstal to be brought back.  Although she has never ever been in trouble, never known anyone who has been in trouble and wouldn't know what to do if  there was trouble. 

I think there are many measures that should be taken before Borstal.    I'd start by overhaullng the justice system, relooking at what discipline mesures can be handed out to schools.  Tougher parenting.

I disagree

Maybe the program itself isn't fantastic but the idea of this is a good one
My idea is ...and I have said for years

That youngsters between the ages of 16-25 should be put on a three strike rule third strike and they have to do between 1-3 years national service depending on age/nature of crimes
 

why limit it to youngsters?

oh yeah, because 'the youth of today' are fkn terrible etc etc, that old, tired trope.

the same trope that's been wheeled out to explain all sorts of societal ails for generations.

Not really sure what to reply to this.

My intentions would be to install discipline into the younger generation to give them a better start in life
Wouldn't really be the same for a 40 year old drug using shoplifter !

if that's your intention, then prevention >>>>>>>>> cure

[Geo the Sarge]

I thought it was nonsense, the Mrs enjoyed it and was calling for Borstal to be brought back.  Although she has never ever been in trouble, never known anyone who has been in trouble and wouldn't know what to do if  there was trouble. 

I think there are many measures that should be taken before Borstal.    I'd start by overhaullng the justice system, relooking at what discipline mesures can be handed out to schools.  Tougher parenting.

I disagree

Maybe the program itself isn't fantastic but the idea of this is a good one
My idea is ...and I have said for years

That youngsters between the ages of 16-25 should be put on a three strike rule third strike and they have to do between 1-3 years national service depending on age/nature of crimes
 

why limit it to youngsters?

oh yeah, because 'the youth of today' are fkn terrible etc etc, that old, tired trope.

the same trope that's been wheeled out to explain all sorts of societal ails for generations.

Not really sure what to reply to this.

My intentions would be to install discipline into the younger generation to give them a better start in life
Wouldn't really be the same for a 40 year old drug using shoplifter !

if that's your intention, then prevention >>>>>>>>> cure

Please allow us the pleasure of your wisdom and enlighten us with some possible solutions.

Geo

[leethefish]

I think my opinions come from personal experience Geo !

I was getting into a little bit of trouble at 17-18
I joined up at 18 

I done 28 days in the guard house during basic training at ATR Bassingbourne

I honestly think that doing what I did honestly changed my life my attitude and made me by far a better person.

[TightEnd]

schooling and parenting

borstal, imo, looks only to reinforce the problems these guys have. surrounds them with similar

if there is no access to proper schooling and parenting, which there often isn't, then start the process there (a long long term approach needed)

[Ironside]

i have always been a fan of service to the nation rather than national service

for a period of 12-18 months as soon as a person leaves full time education they should be required to serve the community they are expect to leave it
this will give them some sort of belonging to the community

it doesnt need to be a military style service but NHS, firemen, councils forestry,coast guard, charities etc etc

maybe 12-18 months full time or 2-3 years part time

[mulhuzz]

I thought it was nonsense, the Mrs enjoyed it and was calling for Borstal to be brought back.  Although she has never ever been in trouble, never known anyone who has been in trouble and wouldn't know what to do if  there was trouble. 

I think there are many measures that should be taken before Borstal.    I'd start by overhaullng the justice system, relooking at what discipline mesures can be handed out to schools.  Tougher parenting.

I disagree

Maybe the program itself isn't fantastic but the idea of this is a good one
My idea is ...and I have said for years

That youngsters between the ages of 16-25 should be put on a three strike rule third strike and they have to do between 1-3 years national service depending on age/nature of crimes
 

why limit it to youngsters?

oh yeah, because 'the youth of today' are fkn terrible etc etc, that old, tired trope.

the same trope that's been wheeled out to explain all sorts of societal ails for generations.

Not really sure what to reply to this.

My intentions would be to install discipline into the younger generation to give them a better start in life
Wouldn't really be the same for a 40 year old drug using shoplifter !

if that's your intention, then prevention >>>>>>>>> cure

Please allow us the pleasure of your wisdom and enlighten us with some possible solutions.

Geo

don't have solutions - my point (albeit not spectacularly expressed) was that every single generation thinks 'the kids' are bad etc etc and fundamentally they aren't much different (once you account for big societal change in general, I mean).

if you're going with three strikes and it's national service for you, my lad, then you've already lost. as Tighty points out you have to start way earlier with parenting and education. I'm neither an educator nor a parent, so I don't claim to be decent at advising anyone on either, but I'm pretty sure that making the formative years more positive solves way more 'youth problems' than running round some fields carrying a gun.

as for the idea of national service, something similar to what Ironside suggests is very common (and I think still mandatory, actually...) in Germany and works rather well in groups that are already integrated into society. For those that aren't, where there's no social cohesion, they already lost and these types of schemes aren't as successful.

[Geo the Sarge]

I think my opinions come from personal experience Geo !

I was getting into a little bit of trouble at 17-18
I joined up at 18 

I done 28 days in the guard house during basic training at ATR Bassingbourne

I honestly think that doing what I did honestly changed my life my attitude and made me by far a better person.

Only 28? you were a good boy.......lol

I've never been in favour of national service as I believe that these days only those that want to be there will do well. Previous conscription was a necessity after the war. As well as allowing us to maintain a good force to defend with (remember it was still pretty much touch and go with the east until the eighties) and also provided employment for young men when there was little as we recovered.

I spent a lot of time with some difficult youngsters from all around Scotland in my time as a recruiter, spending anywhere up to 3 weeks with them at camps during the summer months. We would do drill, first aid, signals, map reading, shooting...........almost everything we done at basic training. The stories these kids would tell us about their everyday lives were astonishing. All the while they loved it even though it was controlled, strict but friendly and bloody hard work for most of them.

We took them away from that for a short time, knowing very few would go on and join the Army, however knowing that a few more would be better for it. We had great times with little bother even with mixed groups from different ares of Edinburgh/Glasgow/Dundee etc.

I would like to see the introduction of similar back into schools, there as many Scouts/Boys Brigade/Girl Guides troops as there used to be and I believe the Government should be funding more things like these for kids to have as an option. The level of funding for sports groups at schools for instance is garbage and is usually encompassed within the whole school budget. I would like to see substantial stand alone budgets for sports and after school activities.

We have the cries "but kids just sit in front of computers all day" however quite often there is no alternative for them available.

Geo

[leethefish]

I think my opinions come from personal experience Geo !

I was getting into a little bit of trouble at 17-18
I joined up at 18  

I done 28 days in the guard house during basic training at ATR Bassingbourne

I honestly think that doing what I did honestly changed my life my attitude and made me by far a better person.

Only 28? you were a good boy.......lol

I've never been in favour of national service as I believe that these days only those that want to be there will do well. Previous conscription was a necessity after the war. As well as allowing us to maintain a good force to defend with (remember it was still pretty much touch and go with the east until the eighties) and also provided employment for young men when there was little as we recovered.

I spent a lot of time with some difficult youngsters from all around Scotland in my time as a recruiter, spending anywhere up to 3 weeks with them at camps during the summer months. We would do drill, first aid, signals, map reading, shooting...........almost everything we done at basic training. The stories these kids would tell us about their everyday lives were astonishing. All the while they loved it even though it was controlled, strict but friendly and bloody hard work for most of them.

We took them away from that for a short time, knowing very few would go on and join the Army, however knowing that a few more would be better for it. We had great times with little bother even with mixed groups from different ares of Edinburgh/Glasgow/Dundee etc.

I would like to see the introduction of similar back into schools, there as many Scouts/Boys Brigade/Girl Guides troops as there used to be and I believe the Government should be funding more things like these for kids to have as an option. The level of funding for sports groups at schools for instance is garbage and is usually encompassed within the whole school budget. I would like to see substantial stand alone budgets for sports and after school activities.

We have the cries "but kids just sit in front of computers all day" however quite often there is no alternative for them available.

Geo

Thinking back I think I got 2 days remission for being a good boy !!
Some really good points by you ...as per usual
 

[Geo the Sarge]

schooling and parenting

Agreed, however how do you "teach" parenting. As already said, it's not always down to bad parenting, have experienced many cases where a youngster has went off the rails even though they had good parents. I've also experienced a lot of cases where my thoughts were why was this individual even allowed to become a parent.

borstal, imo, looks only to reinforce the problems these guys have. surrounds them with similar

Agreed again, when we use the term Borstal we think along the lines of what Borstal used to be, however currently we have young offenders institutes where youngsters can participate in very limited subjects and only if they wish to participate. What we currently have is in effect Borstal with far less of the nastiness of staff but with less opportunities.

if there is no access to proper schooling and parenting, which there often isn't, then start the process there (a long long term approach needed)

Why would there be no access to proper schooling?