Folding on the flop with top pair top kicker or an overpair

[Kilgore_Trout]

Hi Newbie here,

Played a couple of tournaments at DTD over the weekend and went out in the first few levels each time. First time I had AK on an K 7 5 (or similar) board with two hearts. Second time JJ on a similar board.

Both times I was the pre flop raiser so i made a c-bet, got check raised and (probably stupidly) went all in. Both times my opponent had hit middle set.

So my question is, in the early levels of a tournament should I be folding to a re-raise with just top pair top kicker or an overpair to the board on these pretty dry flops - assuming my opponent hasn't already shown himself to be like very aggressive.

Thanks

[StuartHopkin]

You dont have time in DTD comps to fold hands like this. Just unlucky imo

[SuuPRlim]

this is a broad and really general topic, so impossible to say do this with X hand, fold Y hand in Z spot etc but here is something to consider....

Obviously your actual hand strength is important, but try to think of your RELATIVE hand strength as well.

What I mean, is not catagorising your hand to "top pair top kicker" or "an overpair" but how strong the hand is relative to the situation you are in, for example...

its 50/100 no antes in a tournament, we have 11,000 and AQ. we are the raiser preflop and the flop is Q 8 5 we bet and a GOOD player raises. now our hand is no longer "top pair top kicker" our hand is now a bluff catcher, our oppo is representing a hand that beats ours and if he isnt bluffing we will prolly be behind. We consider the liklihood of him buffing as each desicion arrives and the les likely we think he is bluffing the more we should be folding. AQ here is the same as - or at least similar to A8 - if you can see why?

Now lets take another example. we have 6200 at 150/300, we have AJ on and as the PRF we are chk raised again. Now our hand is way way stronger, there are tons of semi-bluffs/worse hands he can be raising, and our hand is relativley VERY strong, and the same as AA/KK/QQ pretty much as he should never have an OP.

Example one we would proceed with caution as our hand isnt that strong, hand 2 we merrily get the money in as we pretty much have the nuts

[NoflopsHomer]

this is a broad and really general topic, so impossible to say do this with X hand, fold Y hand in Z spot etc but here is something to consider....

Obviously your actual hand strength is important, but try to think of your RELATIVE hand strength as well.

What I mean, is not catagorising your hand to "top pair top kicker" or "an overpair" but how strong the hand is relative to the situation you are in, for example...

its 50/100 no antes in a tournament, we have 11,000 and AQ. we are the raiser preflop and the flop is Q 8 5 we bet and a GOOD player raises. now our hand is no longer "top pair top kicker" our hand is now a bluff catcher, our oppo is representing a hand that beats ours and if he isnt bluffing we will prolly be behind. We consider the liklihood of him buffing as each desicion arrives and the les likely we think he is bluffing the more we should be folding. AQ here is the same as - or at least similar to A8 - if you can see why?

Now lets take another example. we have 6200 at 150/300, we have AJ on and as the PRF we are chk raised again. Now our hand is way way stronger, there are tons of semi-bluffs/worse hands he can be raising, and our hand is relativley VERY strong, and the same as AA/KK/QQ pretty much as he should never have an OP.

Example one we would proceed with caution as our hand isnt that strong, hand 2 we merrily get the money in as we pretty much have the nuts

Swap the stack sizes/blind levels and it becomes way more interesting/difficult when we get raised.

[cambridgealex]

this is a broad and really general topic, so impossible to say do this with X hand, fold Y hand in Z spot etc but here is something to consider....

Obviously your actual hand strength is important, but try to think of your RELATIVE hand strength as well.

What I mean, is not catagorising your hand to "top pair top kicker" or "an overpair" but how strong the hand is relative to the situation you are in, for example...

its 50/100 no antes in a tournament, we have 11,000 and AQ. we are the raiser preflop and the flop is Q 8 5 we bet and a GOOD player raises. now our hand is no longer "top pair top kicker" our hand is now a bluff catcher, our oppo is representing a hand that beats ours and if he isnt bluffing we will prolly be behind. We consider the liklihood of him buffing as each desicion arrives and the les likely we think he is bluffing the more we should be folding. AQ here is the same as - or at least similar to A8 - if you can see why?

Now lets take another example. we have 6200 at 150/300, we have AJ on and as the PRF we are chk raised again. Now our hand is way way stronger, there are tons of semi-bluffs/worse hands he can be raising, and our hand is relativley VERY strong, and the same as AA/KK/QQ pretty much as he should never have an OP.

Example one we would proceed with caution as our hand isnt that strong, hand 2 we merrily get the money in as we pretty much have the nuts

dave is such a nice guy.

[Kilgore_Trout]

Thanks for these comments.

So its a question of stack sizes and texture of the flop - wet or dry.

On a dry flop when we are deep stacked top pair is a poor hand when check raised.

On a wet flop where the opponent could have a lot of drawing hands and we have like 20 big blinds or less (??) we can get it in with top pair.

This is helpful. Cheers.

[kinboshi]

That's sort of what Dave's saying.  Basically, a hand in isolation doesn't really help us make a decision (unless it's the nuts ldo). 

In last month's £300 at deeteedee, seat 8 at my table became the 'ejector seat' and the first two occupants of the seat both went out early doors with AK on an Kxx flop.  Both massively overplayed their hands when the stack-sizes and blinds were taken into account (both went out to flopped sets, and there was absolutely no need for them to get their entire stacks in the middle with TPTK in that situation). 

[cambridgealex]

That's sort of what Dave's saying.  Basically, a hand in isolation doesn't really help us make a decision (unless it's the nuts ldo). 

In last month's £300 at deeteedee, seat 8 at my table became the 'ejector seat' and the first two occupants of the seat both went out early doors with AK on an Kxx flop.  Both massively overplayed their hands when the stack-sizes and blinds were taken into account (both went out to flopped sets, and there was absolutely no need for them to get their entire stacks in the middle with TPTK in that situation). 

[ ] thinly veiled

[kinboshi]

That's sort of what Dave's saying.  Basically, a hand in isolation doesn't really help us make a decision (unless it's the nuts ldo). 

In last month's £300 at deeteedee, seat 8 at my table became the 'ejector seat' and the first two occupants of the seat both went out early doors with AK on an Kxx flop.  Both massively overplayed their hands when the stack-sizes and blinds were taken into account (both went out to flopped sets, and there was absolutely no need for them to get their entire stacks in the middle with TPTK in that situation). 

[ ] thinly veiled

Thinly veiled nothing.  Went out half an hour before the end of Day 1.

[Ironside]

Congratulation on what must be a deep run for you boshi

[SuuPRlim]

Thanks for these comments.

So its a question of stack sizes and texture of the flop - wet or dry.

On a dry flop when we are deep stacked top pair is a poor hand when check raised.

On a wet flop where the opponent could have a lot of drawing hands and we have like 20 big blinds or less (??) we can get it in with top pair.

This is helpful. Cheers.

Kinda onto it now, basically what we're getting to is that way more things influence your relative hand value than just what hand it is, stack size and board texture are defo important things, then think about other stuff as well...

our opponent, is he tilting, how has he played DOES HE tend to overplay or overvalue hands?  as you play more and more you start to pick up on stuff that influences how strong your hand is, just try and focus in every hand and not to miss too much information as it tends to be leaking out of people most of the time. Its a good idea to pay attention when you're not in a hand as well as and look at what and how people are betting with certain hands, i.e if someone had QT on Q582J and bet all three streets, this means if he bets three streets into us on that board when we have KK he we can beat value bets as well as bluffs, if he bet once, chk/called the turn and chk/called the river we can assume if he bets 3 next time he only has either a BlUFF or a very very good hand (better than KK)

Look out for if people bluffed or not when a spot to bluff cropped up etc