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Author Topic: Fed up with rebuys.... Why cant the casino give us what we want?  (Read 3755 times)
4dam
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« on: February 10, 2006, 05:38:39 PM »

I been playing for a good few years but over the last 2 been playing 3+ times a week. Now i dont mind rebuys but surely the casino can offer more then just rebuys all the time.

Fed up with rebuys as the big wallets like to show how big they are. Whats fine when you win but when you keep on getting beat with garbage one night you feel like not playing again.

I recently played a few of the limited rebuy games at notts and feel it makes for a better game. Like the £50 plus 1 rebuy or addon. Like most there that night i treated it as a £100 double chance. The real poker players get a chance to play and watch as big wallet makes an early exit.

Now the casino make there money on the comp entrance fee so why do they stick to rebuys. As it seems most players want more starting chips and slower clocks. So like most i would like to see alot of these limited rebuys with more starting chips and a slower clock. So instead of a £10 rebuy with 1000 starting chips and a 20min clock make it a £25 max 3rebuys with 5000 starting chips and a 40min clock. That way i guy on a limited budget could turn up with £25 and play a good solid game and the rebuy merchent could save money and only spend £100. And the casino get big wallet on blackjack quicker.

As i said earlier i dont mind a rebuy game as i like the big prize pool it generates. But i would like a bit more choice.




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ACE2M
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« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2006, 05:50:31 PM »

 

I love the notts 50 plus 1 re buy and 1 add-on  it was the best live tournament i had played in ages.
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Nightfly
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« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2006, 05:53:49 PM »



I love the notts 50 plus 1 re buy and 1 add-on  it was the best live tournament i had played in ages.

I liked it too (if that helps)
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Jinky04
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« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2006, 06:09:40 PM »

We had this discussion about CinCins as well. Essentially the argument for rebuys was two fold. Firstly the club takes a 7% cut of the prizepool- obviously more buy ins the more cash the club makes. And second, some players will argue that the rebuys add a great deal of value to the pot and that freezeouts won't attract sufficient players. The clock is kept quickish because if people are in the tournament they're not in the cash game being raked...

However as we found with the superbowl £40 freezeout last sunday there is undoubted demand for a reasonably priced freezeout- and if people can budget exactly how much they'll spend in the tourney, they can allow for a cash game buyin. At the end of the day, poker tournaments have huge popularity however, the return for the house is probably the lowest of any of their games, and thats what drives the supply of relatively quick rebuy tourneys.

.

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ifm
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« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2006, 06:24:16 PM »

Because rebuys attract more players in the long term than freezeouts.
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« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2006, 06:45:04 PM »

I aggree 4dam, the rebuys can decend in to all in fests before you know whats hit you, where the freezeout can get you involved in a good solid game of poker.

As jinky said we had a £40 freezout run for the superbowl and it was quite successfull ( i will admit i was second out after my KK ran in to AA and a king on the flop was no use to a 4 card flushed board ) I had to get that in before anyone else said it.

what made this night particularly sucessfull was the "davey deep pocket" types turned up and were bloody chum for the rest of the good players and they stuck around to play in the cash games as well.

If anything casinos have to make a decision on who they want to please, their punters or themselves. IMHO a freezout in a casino will have the crazy gamblers out and on the gaming tables sooner rather than later, which can only be good for business.

« Last Edit: February 10, 2006, 07:03:11 PM by newmanseye » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2006, 06:58:04 PM »

 
I agree with 4dam in that rebuys are ok, but why can't they just offer a mix of formats.
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Rooky9
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« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2006, 07:22:58 PM »

.....So does that mean you'll be there tonight then adam?!

I might come down... play in the tourn and see if theres any cash games like last weeks - though i'll try not to throw it away this time!
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crddolly
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« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2006, 07:47:57 PM »

We had this discussion about CinCins as well. Essentially the argument for rebuys was two fold. Firstly the club takes a 7% cut of the prizepool- obviously more buy ins the more cash the club makes.



If this club is as you say charging 7% of the prize pool they are breaking the gaming board laws card rooms are only allowed to charge up to 10% of the original buyin with a maximum of I think £30.

THE PRIZE POOL BELONGS TO THE PLAYERS THE CASINO ARE NOT ALLOWED TO TOUCH IT

We at Walsall offer all kinds of different buyin structures from freezout to 90 minute rebuy's and find that the 90 minute games are most popular.
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Nightfly
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« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2006, 09:10:21 PM »

When I first started running the card-room at Gala Notts, the schedule consisted of 4 competitions per week, all of them Pot-Limit Unlimited Rebuys(90 minutes). Two of them were £20 buy-in, and the other two were £30 buy-in. The only exception to this was the first Sunday of the month competition £100 Pot Limit Re-buy (Unlimited Re-buys 120 mins)

Popularity and attendances for these competitions had been growing steadily, so it may be understandable that the ‘Casino’ would see no reason for change.

Casino managers pretty much fall into two camps. They either hate poker with a passion or they judge it to be a good way to bring the ‘punters’ in and is therefore a necessary evil.

Every so often you will find a manager with a passion for poker, who will take an active interest in the varied opinions and ideas offered by the playing masses. (I am not talking about myself here… I never was a manager, just a senior inspector who occasionally ran poker competitions) In my experience these type of managers are few and far between.

I began my casino career 10 years ago with Grosvenor Casinos. After about 6 months on the job I was trained to deal Texas. There were three competitions a week, all with dealers provided – I cannot remember what the buy ins were  but I recall that the competitions were very popular and attendances were good.

Things were a lot different then… it was the old equal blinds on the button.

Bit by bit, successive management regimes managed to destroy all trace of poker in the club. The card-room became an extension of the bar area at weekends and there you go.

From time to time, poker was experimented with but never really gained its former popularity.

Grosvenor are very forward thinking when it comes to poker and they have a massive share of the UK festival market.

The club in question was Leeds Merrion Way and it is good to see that they have finally re-introduced poker albeit a £2 re-buy.

Most of the players in Leeds wanted the poker comps, but the casino took them away.
The fact that they have started again probably has very little to do with what the players want. It is more likely an attempt to use the poker phenomenon to gain a few extra bums on seats.

This is what poker is to a lot of casinos… a few extra bums on seats. It doesn’t actually matter to most casino managers whether the competition is a re-buy or a freeze-out (I would guess that about 60% of senior casino staff do not even know the difference) just as long as the bums make it to those seats.
Unlimited Rebuy competitions are casino friendly competition as they tend to appeal to ‘gamblers’. The possibility of a high reward for a small stake is inherent in these competitions although very few manage to win from just their entry.

On roulette it would be like playing Straight-Ups where it may take many spins before your number comes in (if at all)

Limited Rebuy events are like playing Splits & Streets. The numbers come up more often but the relative reward is not so high.

Freezeouts are like betting corners – the rewards are there they are not so high though

Maybe this is a stupid analogy

Casinos like gamblers. Gamblers like to gamble. Unlimited Re-buy chip-throwing competitions are a gamblers dream.

Maybe this is a stupid theory.

At the end of the day the casinos just want people in, changing things that seem to work everywhere else just takes too much effort.

At Gala Nottingham I fought long and hard for changes to the way ‘things had been for a long time’. It was a real battle. Most of the time I came up against complete indifference. Even the smallest of changes required an elaborate protocol of requests, referrals, refusals and subsequent re-requests.

Gala Nottingham, when I left, had 7 weekly tournaments

3 Pot Limit Hold-Em: Unlimited Re-Buys, £50, £30, & £20
3 No Limit Limited Rebuys  £10(3 max), £20(1 max) and £50(1 max)
1 No Limit Freeze-Out £30

First Sunday of the month is still £100 PLHE.

I tried to organise a festival 3 times to no avail.

What was achieved:
2 x £200 PLHE Rebuy comps
1 x £200 NLHE Rebuy
1 x £250 NLHE Freeze-Out
1 x £300 NLHE Max 1 Re-buy

Most of this was done because it reflected changes that the players wanted.
The casino did not stand in the way of these changes, equally it did very little to initiate them.

I believe that a balanced schedule is the key to keeping most of the people happy most of the time.

The other thing which has changed since I left is this:

A Lot Less stress!


About the author:
Nightfly is an expert at ‘going off on one’, currently post operation with a hole in his back. He lives at home with Mrs Nightfly and their lovely(but cheeky) 10 month daughter, Olivia.

Sorry about the essay guys!
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dik9
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« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2006, 04:21:20 AM »

What he said Cheesy
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4dam
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« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2006, 04:27:37 AM »

Cheers nightfly

I have no problem playing rebuys but would like to have more choice...

And all the big festivals main events are freeze outs so i would like to play more so i can get my game plan spot on. I dont want to be trying new ideas in a £750 freezeout. i would like to do it in a £50-100.

Plus all the players seem to lean towards having a chance to play more freeze outs.

I currently play out of leeds this is my choice

TUE £5rebuy NLH
WED £5 rebuy PLH
THUR £10rebuy PLH
FRI £10rebuy PLH
SAT£10rebuy PLH
SUN £5rebuy PLH

As you can see i have a lot of choice its evere rebuy or rebuy.

Now iam not moaning cos its costing me loads as iam doing alright out of these games (currently top league at gala in Leeds) but i would like more choice. You cant even find a omaha tournie anywhere now trhat would be a real find. How can you get any better without pratice at the type of tournie you play.


Cheers

4dam
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robyong
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« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2006, 05:09:18 AM »

Nightfly,

It would be interesting to do a poll on what people want. Options could be:

1.100% Freezouts
2. 75% Freezouts - 25 % Re-Buys
3. 50 : 50
4. 25: 75

or  what ever you think would fnd out the best answer for sceduleing comps at DTD, although Blondies are not necessarily a exact profile of poker popluation, it may a good indicator.

Rob
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AdamM
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« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2006, 09:47:41 AM »

start with one of everything and see what takes.

I cant believe it's still BB on the Button at Gala. I thought that one had been sorted out.

roll on DTD
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Yogi-Bear
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« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2006, 05:33:43 PM »

As you all know the Rebuy merchants are the gamblers on the house games, and usually the louder ones that casinos listen to.

Unfortunately you have to make as Big a deal about it as them, which usually doesn't fit in with poker players personalities, despite what people may say, plus you may all lack the necessary clout the gamblers still have in casinos. Despite all they say, Ie: "It doesnt matter how much they spend" , when we all know it does.

Yogi

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