How long can it last?

[TightEnd]

Everone I speak to says they are a winning player online. Lets allow for a bit of journalistic licence (ie "i broke even"="i lost") in the re-telling of a lot of poker tales, but nonetheless we are in a zero sum game.

Nevertheless I suspect that those who take the time to read, learn, post on sites like this, ask strategy questions etc probably do win.

If you are all winning....there have to be losers on the other side. ( Last night there were 6538 players on Stars when I logged on ).

Why do you think you win online? Why don't the losers adapt/try and learn/go away?

What is your opinion on how long this supply of seemingly losing money can last?

For the record I do win online, but overwhelmingly on NL SnGs and to a lesser extent limit cash rather than any other particular game. For example I don't win overall on MTTs.


Your thoughts please

[Bongo]

It's a negative sum game due to the rake (which is a significant amount if you see how much is taken).

I think the main reason why people continue to play is that they enjoy it, some people don't play to win.

[Phil]

I would say overall I am a loser... however, I have been playing about 4 years, the first 3 of which I was at Uni, was learning (slowly) and really was not a good player. That was my education if you will. The following year I probably did break even playing at low levels.

The last nine months I am defintiely up, i've withdrawn a lot more than I deposited.

I can only imagine there are a lot of players who play for fun like I did and don't care too much about the winning, i know i didn't to begin with.

Furthermore, I have recently been working on my MTT game (i make my money purely from STTs at the moment) and I knew I would have to pay to improve my game.

I believe I've been as sensible as I possibly can and have been exclusively playing Freerolls, $1 and $3 MTTs simply to improve my game and learn as much as I can. Recently, I have managed to cash in a couple of $10 MTT which has more than paid for my new 'education'.

One reason i've done well on STT for the past 9 months or so is down to discipline off of the table. If i sit down at night and play a STT and lose - i'm done. Bad beat, bad play, whatever - that's it for the night. I know any reason for me losing will mean that I'm not playing my A game, or at least won't be for the rest of the night. I'm pretty sure, most internet players will play all night, win or lose.


So basically, I think that the reason some of us do well, or have done well, is basically as we're all in different stages of our game and everyone is happy to pay for their own education. Some learn quick, others take 3 years (like me) and pay for the rest of us (you). 

[byronkincaid]

I always thought that sng's were so adictive that there would be a never ending supply of fish, but then I had a couple of old friends who I see every now and again start playing them. To me a game that I love playing that I actually make money from as well is the greatest thing ever, but even though I said they were welcome to come round and I'd probably be able to show them how to beat the $10s in a couple of hours they couldn't be bothered, carried on losing and eventually gave it up. As they are carrying on playing golf, pool etc it's slightly worrying to me that they gave up on poker so quickly. Especially as one of them has a real low paying job and the other one works 2 jobs, a part time game where they make money would seem to be ideal

[dan]

i have ups and downs. i look at it week by week then monthly. when im winning i feel confident and when im playing a mtt or a stt i feel i can make more plays. when im losing im less confident i dont raise as much, i dont always try and nick pots i seem to wait for the hands to come to me rather than going looking for them. as far as winning goes and losing overall goes i very rarely take the money i win out of my will hill account. so if 1 month i win and leave it in there but the next month i lose whats in there have i lost or broke even i dont know how people look at it, to me that is breaking even

[ACE2M]

It appears it can go on for ever as the new players keep coming and i reckon if you are not naturally disposed to the maths and the strategy research that decent players will use to turn the hobbie into a profit making excercise it can take a couple of years to start figuring out some basics that others will be fully understanding after a couple of months.

I like you win the majority of my money in nl stt's, although i have noticed something intresting in that the toughest to win are the games a couple above the minimum stake e.g. 10/20 when it goes 3/5/10/20 etc. I think this is where people start to move to when they have learnt the most important early rule (hand selection) and they are mostly rocks so these can go on for what seems like an eternity. I think above that you have cash rich fish and quality players hoovering up the cash. (playing at 50 stt the other day and we down to three players after 16 hands!!!)

I am quite a long way ahead in mtt's but only due to sparkling run late last year, i think players mtt standards improve much more quickly as a result of them showing a fairly quick aversion to ring games as they are seemingly throwing money away and their moves are harder to get through. They then do their learning in mtt's and revisit the cash games later so the standard past the 1st couple of rounds in most mtt's is quite good.

I'm sure that a decent tight aggressive player will always find people to pay them off when they catch a monster.

[snoopy1239]

Everone I speak to says they are a winning player online. Lets allow for a bit of journalistic licence (ie "i broke even"="i lost") in the re-telling of a lot of poker tales, but nonetheless we are in a zero sum game.

Nevertheless I suspect that those who take the time to read, learn, post on sites like this, ask strategy questions etc probably do win.

If you are all winning....there have to be losers on the other side. ( Last night there were 6538 players on Stars when I logged on ).

Why do you think you win online? Why don't the losers adapt/try and learn/go away?

What is your opinion on how long this supply of seemingly losing money can last?

For the record I do win online, but overwhelmingly on NL SnGs and to a lesser extent limit cash rather than any other particular game. For example I don't win overall on MTTs.


Your thoughts please

Cos most of these 'losers' just think they're unlucky.

[RED-DOG]

This is a great thread, I am very interested in peoples views on this subject, more please

I believe it is possible to make a money online but you really have to apply yourself, it isnt always fun and it certainly isnt easy

I started playing fulltime poker at the beginning of this year and I have kept detailed records of my wins/losses

I had an amazing run during Feb/Mar when I turned a profit of $90k, but I knew that was just a blip, reality is a little different, but Feb/Mar aside, my online "earnings" work out to $4470 per month (so far)

A fellow blondite sent me a PM asking me what my thoughts on "Full time" online play were, for anyone who is interested, I have reproduced my reply below

Hi, In answer to your bankroll question, I suppose I initially just threw a couple of hundred into an account, and when it was gone I threw in another couple, remember, at this time I had no intention of playing poker for a living, I was just trying to see if I could turn a profit, if I built my bankroll up to five or six hundred I played bigger games and if I got skint I went back to the smaller stuff, I tried not to deposit more than 100 per week

By the time I decided to go "full time" I had already had some success and had a good idea of what games suited me and what I thought was a reasonable expectation, I figured I needed 10k to give it a proper bash, I only play multis online so the paydays can be quite far apart and you have to realise you will lose a lot more times than you win

This brings me to what I consider to be the most important aspects of online play for profit, but please bear in mind these things suit me and my type of game, you might have to change/modify them to suit yourself

1 if you started poker as a live player and had some success this can be a disadvantage, online players dont have the ability to lay a hand down like live players do, its so easy to press that call button and they dont have to face the ridicule of the other players face to face at the poker table, also, if they get knocked out they dont have to get into the car, drive home and wait until tomorrow night for another game, so dont try to make moves early, and bet your monster hands big, they will call

2 Gather as much information as you can, restrict your play to one or two sites initially, you will find that the same players play in the same games night after night and you can soon get to know their games, dont play two games at once, dont watch the telly between hands, and concentrate even if your not involved, make notes, MAKE NOTES!

3 Dont make the mistake of playing any old game thats available at the time, the value varies enormously, plan your schedule and stick to it

4 Try not to get angry, upset or frustrated, Its so easy to go on tilt but so hard to recognise or admit it, Dont play when you are too tired, or have something else on your mind, If your game isnt what it should be, have a day off.

5 Find the best games, the ones that suit you and offer the best value, watch out for guaranteed freeze outs that dont have enough entrys to make the guarantee, take advantage of other peoples "bad play times" i.e. 9am on Poker stars, when its 3am for the Americans and they are tired, losing, and tilting, or midnight on Ladbrokes when they come back from the pub

6 Keep records, where you played, how well you think you played, your results, where you make your best profit and your biggest losses, Be totally honest with yourself

7 please keep it in perspective, dont play with money you cant afford to lose or when its loss will affect those around you

I hope you dont think Im setting myself up as some sort of oracle here, I am the last person to give advice as a rule, these few points are just meant to something for you to take on board as you develop your game

I wish you the very best of luck and if I can help in any way, please feel free to ask

Tom

[snoopy1239]

Nice reply RED.

[RFC]

RED DOG thats one of the best things ive read on here yet

thanks for that

[claypole]

I agree Red Dog - great post - surprised you just missed...

9.  Look for aggressive muppets like claypole in their early days on laddies - stalk them, follow them from table to table and take all there money 

[Maroon]

Nice one, Red-Dog, once again. 

[Jimmy B]

Nice post Red Dog.

I guess the people who are losing are (a) the new players - at the moment there's a pretty steady stream of them, after a while they learn get better and start winning, then move up stakes and maybe start losing again for a while then get better etc. so there should always be value at every level as long as the new players keep coming. That's not to say that they are losers at all stakes, nor to say after 6 months that they'll still be losing, and (b) the players who are just playing for a laugh - could be lowish stakes players who see it as entertainment and is costing them roughly the same as an evening down the Pub, equally could be stupidly rich people playing 'high-stakes' who enjoy throwing their cash around a bit. Bless their silk socks 

[dan]

nice post red dog i was just waiting for the punchline

[Robert HM]

Excellent post Tom. Thanks.