Moving from NL STT to NL cash

[Pokerron]

I posted this on a thread yesterday but the conversation shifted away from the point of my post so i thought I'd have another go here:

I currently play $100 STT with 20 x buy in which some say is too low, but it is comfortable for me and has ensured I can handle bad beats without going on tilt and chasing.   It has served me well for the last 2 years but now I keep getting the urge to try my hand at NL cash.

With that in mind I was going to use my STT bank roll to build a NL cash bankroll over the next few months, so I could give that a serious go.   Someone on the other thread suggested that 30 buy ins is what I should be looking at having, eoes anyone strongly agree/disagree with that? 

I am a patient/tight/aggressive player and with that in mind would welcome advice on optimum number of players per table and whether the suggested bankroll allows for multi tabling. 

Also, all my books (other than the usual 'bibles') are on tournament strategy, can anyone recommend any good NL cash game books that have been released recently?

[byronkincaid]

I currently play $100 STT with 20 x buy in which some say is too low, but it is comfortable for me and has ensured I can handle bad beats without going on tilt and chasing.

If you've played $100 sngs for 2 years with a $2K roll, you have been running good for 2 years IMHO

Someone on the other thread suggested that 30 buy ins is what I should be looking at having, eoes anyone strongly agree/disagree with that? 


I'm trying to pretty aggressively move up stakes so I'm moving up when I get to 20 buy ins. 30 would obv be safer

I am a patient/tight/aggressive player and with that in mind would welcome advice on optimum number of players per table and whether the suggested bankroll allows for multi tabling.

Sounds like you'd be better off playing full ring. Yes multi tabling doesn't increase varience.

Also, all my books (other than the usual 'bibles') are on tournament strategy, can anyone recommend any good NL cash game books that have been released recently?

I liked PL and NL Poker. Harrington 1 can be used for cash games also Sklansky has a new book out called No Limit Hold 'em: Theory and Practice

[Pokerron]

Cheers for that.   Although I play with a fairly short bankroll for STT I want to build a big enough NL cash buffer, because I know if I start with 20 and lose I will quit and stick to STTs where I would describe my return as 'solid' rather than good, I cash out less than $12k per annum. 

I need to raise $1,500 to play $50 NL cash games.   Rather than use trial and error I'd rather copy someone's successful strategy for quitting for the day etc, what would be a realistic target for quitting while ahead/getting out before I lose the lot?

I really want to give cash games a chance because I think there is more money to be made there possibly.....

[TightEnd]

   Rather than use trial and error I'd rather copy someone's successful strategy for quitting for the day etc, what would be a realistic target for quitting while ahead/getting out before I lose the lot?

My own personal maxims are as follows:

Leave if you double up; bank the profit, get up

Never have more than one pull up in a session...if I have more than 1 I know I am mentally wrong at that point and can easily chase and play an abnormal game

Maximum of two hour playing in one session...after that length of time I get tired and make sub optimal decisions


This is based at playnig levels up to 3-6, 3 tabling max

[Bongo]

Why leave when you double up?

That would be the last thing i'd want to do 

[TightEnd]

I leave when I double up, works for me...guarantees a profit in my records and ensures I am confident when I restart...a mental trick if you like

I accept if a game is v soft then most will want to continue, just it is right for me personally.


sorry, more


Keep detailed records and player notes; analyse your game with PT or similar

Look at hourly win rates (number of BB won for example) on various sites at various times of the day...they will vary in ways you do not suspect and can help you play the right games at the right times


Finally, only quote your win rate after many thousands of hands  ...anything less is short term variance

[jezza777]

It locks in a profit and keeps you in a good frame of mind.

(what tighty said)

[byronkincaid]

You're talking about doubling up across all 3 tables right?

[TightEnd]

in aggregate yes

[Bongo]

Wow, I actually completely disagree with that.

I don't think it's wise to base your decisions on when to quit on how much you're winning or losing (unless they are evidence of something else).

If I think the table is good, I'm still playing well and I still want to play then i'll keep sat at the table. If i've doubled up and have more money in front of me then so much the better, just means I can win more now.

Of course if I'd been completely outplayed by the table and somehow got a lucky double up it might be the time to leave.

Likewise if i've down some cash then I might leave if I think i've been outplayed or maybe i've just been unlucky but the loss has affected my game and so a break would be wise.

I have enough confidence I can beat the games I play without needing to "trick" myself into feeling good.

[Pokerron]

I think having a session stop (win/loss) limit is a good way to minimise losses, while accepting the upward swings are possibly greatly reduced.   Its cautious, but fits in with my playing style and the way I operate on STTs (hense the low cashout per annum) currently.

Great info gents, please keep the advice coming.

[jezza777]

I hear what your saying Bongo and tend to agree that stop loss limits arn't really the way to do things. However it really is horses for courses and your mindset is so important in this game that I think it is well worth doing everything you can to keep it healthy. If I double up and then lose it , then I find it can really affect my game "why didnt I cash out" ect then I begin to chase ect... I just want to do everything to keep my feet off the slipery slope toward bad decision making. Also I would never think after a game "I wonder how much I could have won if I'd stayed" but I would think "Why the hell did't I leave that game up  ,I cant believe I did that ect..." This creates tension in my mind for the next session.

I know poker is long term and individual results from sessions are meaningless but confidence gained lost isnt.

Just my thoughts

jezza

[Longy]

I must admit while i set myself time limits on sessions and finish at that time, unless im having a rough time and feel my head has gone. Yet i do suffer when im quite a way ahead in a session from the lock up the profit syndrome and tend to play through it but i understand the mental feeling. I agree with Bongo though that it is certainly giving up money if you leave a table when you are in fact beating it.

As for the OP, alot of good advice given here. Standard bankroll is 20-50 times the max buy in, i think you can lean towards the bottom of this because you are pulling up for the minimum. Definitley use tracking software, Poker Tracker or Poker office and some form of HU display with it, it gives you a big edge over time. Also when you have gained some experience i would urge you to try buying in for more, if you are one of best players at the table you will giving away extra money on your good hands if you playing off a shortstack.