ABE, Anyone but England?

[Rod Paradise]

This article in today's Times may be relevant to this discussion?

www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2224705,00.html

World Cup snub by Scots leader 'fuels anti-English racism'
By David Lister, Scotland Correspondent
 
AN ENGLAND football fan living in Scotland blamed the country’s First Minister yesterday for stoking anti-English racism after his windows were smashed because he was displaying the St George’s flag. Amid rising fears that Scotland may be boycotted by tourists from south of the Border over Jack McConnell’s refusal to support England in the World Cup, Allan Robinson, 44, accused the First Minister of putting English people living in Scotland at risk.
 
Police said that they were investigating an “act of vandalism” on Mr Robinson’s home in Coatbridge, Lanarkshire, in which three windows were smashed as the opening game of the tournament got under way last Friday.

Anti-racism campaigners described the attack as “moronic”, but Mr Robinson, who is originally from Leeds and moved to Scotland five years ago, blamed the First Minister. “Me putting up a single flag . . . and my windows going through, I think it’s all to do with what Jack McConnell says.

“I was horrified by the attack. All three bedroom windows were smashed in. My girlfriend and I went down the shops and I was in my England strip. I got abuse hurled at me. I didn’t leave my house all weekend. I’m thinking it might be safer to move.”

The attack will further damage Scotland’s reputation as a welcoming and tolerant nation, already under scrutiny after the First Minister’s remarks. Asked last month whether he would be supporting England, Mr McConnell said: “No, I will not. Scotland is not there and that’s disappointing. And there are people who think that as First Minister I should automatically support England instead. But football is not about politics, so I will not be.”

The First Minister’s office denied that Mr McConnell had encouraged anti-Englishness. A spokesman refused to discuss the incident but said: “There is no place for racism in Scotland and we will do whatever we can to tackle that.” This week a group of 60 chartered surveyors from England cancelled a two-day conference at an hotel in Scotland because of Mr McConnell’s comments.

Tourism chiefs are concerned that the English may boycott Scotland after Mr McConnell’s remarks, but Visit Scotland, the tourist authority, said that, with one exception, there were no indications that this was happening.

Although Gordon Brown has said that he will be supporting England along with “two thirds of Scots”, most of the 400,000 English people living north of the Border will find that statistic hard to believe.

Sports shops across Scotland have struggled to cope with demand for Trinidad & Tobago strips and Jason Scotland, the Trinidadian striker who plays for St Johnstone, the Scottish first division team, has become a cult hero with a song in his name sweeping to the top of the charts.

Some bars are offering free drinks whenever England concede a goal and a sports shop in Angus is giving free golf balls to anybody wearing the strips of England’s opponents.

The Scottish Commission for Racial Equality has cautioned against anti-English racism, while schoolchildren who make anti-English remarks in class have been threatened with suspension. The letters pages of newspapers have been inun- dated with complaints about England’s World Cup “hysteria”and the endless coverage of Wayne Rooney’s foot.
 
 

You could also have included the one from Monday(?) about the Scot killed down on the South Coast - for being a Scot during the World Cup.... (BTW - the guy lives in Coatbridge - windaes in is standard there I thought.... they also probably thought he was a Rangers fan - Still not fair on him though I agree).

Point is nutters and idiots are nutters and idiots.

[Rod Paradise]

One wee question - do any other countries demand their neighbours support them in the WC? Do yanks expect Canadians to support them? They share a language and culture....

The demand for other nations in Britain to support England strikes me as arrogance. The declaration that not to do so is driven by envy, or recollections of 100's of years ago also seems arrogant.

I'll nail my colours to the mast - I've met too many nice English people to hate someone for being English, and they have everyright to support their team and give me a rubdown when(if ) they do well. I will not however support them in any field, rugger, footy or even tiddlywinks. Apart from history (Margaret Hilda Thatcher being one of the more recent annoying parts of it)... I hate that 'England  Expects' - What's wrong with 'England hopes', 'England would like'... they're fine - but Expects?? sorry, while England Expects I hope England gets disappointed.

[jammer]

Rod, I think its a bit cheeky to call English people arrogant if they hope the Scots want us to do well. Stupid or naive maybe, but I don't see how its arrogant. If a blues fan is suprised that, being a villa supporter, I don't want birmingham city to win a match, how on earth is he arrogant?
 
That sort of pretext seems to be crossing a line to me

[Rod Paradise]

Rod, I think its a bit cheeky to call English people arrogant if they hope the Scots want us to do well. Stupid or naive maybe, but I don't see how its arrogant. If a blues fan is suprised that, being a villa supporter, I don't want birmingham city to win a match, how on earth is he arrogant?
 
That sort of pretext seems to be crossing a line to me

Not the surprise from a blues fan - that's OK - it's the expectation that you would, and allegations of envy/chips on the shoulder if you don't - I'd find it arrogant - kind of 'we're there, you're not you should want us to win' - WHY??

Hoping we would OK - Expecting - I would find arrogant. Like I've not got some choice to make.

There's no insult meant Jammer - But should we support another country... I don't see why & I don't know of any nation that expects their neighbours/allies to do so.

[ifm]

I don't think anyone is demanding anything here.
V* are sh** BTW

Oh, and "England expects" is a saying from the war.

[I, Zimbra]

But should we support another country... I don't see why & I don't know of any nation that expects their neighbours/allies to do so.

Not sure... I mean how many other countries are in the same position as England and Scotland, i.e. both being part of the United Kingdom? This sort of poly-country isn't standard operating procedure amongst nations.

Having said that, I do wonder how many "ABU"s there are in Moscow right now, desperately cheering Spain on... 

[Rod Paradise]

But should we support another country... I don't see why & I don't know of any nation that expects their neighbours/allies to do so.

Not sure... I mean how many other countries are in the same position as England and Scotland, i.e. both being part of the United Kingdom? This sort of poly-country isn't standard operating procedure amongst nations.

Having said that, I do wonder how many "ABU"s there are in Moscow right now, desperately cheering Spain on... 

Understood - but personally I'm not a fan of the poly country - and would have a lot easier time with England in the WC if we weren't linked...

I think things have got worse lately as well (politically I mean) - with the Lothian Question, Red Ken's nonsense about supporting the Scots financially, and the press comments about whether a Scot or a Welshman could be Prime Minister now there's a semi devolved parliament....

But at the same time I'm far happier that the average Englishman seems to think of England as England & not Britain as England (that grated a lot in the past - I still think expecting Scots to support England stems from that). I welcome the use of the St George's cross instead of the UJ for England support & have actually relaxed a bit about caring if England get beat. Then I hear Motson & I'm right back on my ABE bus .

[thediceman]

Rod, I think its a bit cheeky to call English people arrogant if they hope the Scots want us to do well. Stupid or naive maybe, but I don't see how its arrogant. If a blues fan is suprised that, being a villa supporter, I don't want birmingham city to win a match, how on earth is he arrogant?
 
That sort of pretext seems to be crossing a line to me

Not the surprise from a blues fan - that's OK - it's the expectation that you would, and allegations of envy/chips on the shoulder if you don't - I'd find it arrogant - kind of 'we're there, you're not you should want us to win' - WHY??

Hoping we would OK - Expecting - I would find arrogant. Like I've not got some choice to make.

There's no insult meant Jammer - But should we support another country... I don't see why & I don't know of any nation that expects their neighbours/allies to do so.

Again someone who likes to take someones words and quote them in a context that they weren't originally used. I never agrued or even suggested the point that anybody fellow Brit's supporting England MUST be envious or have a chip. I do believe I stated everybody is free to support who the wish. I have never said that any Scotland or any other fan should support England, infact in my first post on this thread I posted:

I really don't agree with Mr Moves statement that Scottish fans should support the English which was the final line of his original post so therefore the point of whether we should support Germany is not of any real consideration. The fact is people are free to support whatever team they choose and if they wish to adopt other countries/teams that is their choice.

So who said what that prompted you to say "it's the expectation that you would, and allegations of envy/chips on the shoulder if you don't", wasn't me. What I find arrogent is people who misrepresent another persons point of view to get their own point across.

[Rod Paradise]

Rod, I think its a bit cheeky to call English people arrogant if they hope the Scots want us to do well. Stupid or naive maybe, but I don't see how its arrogant. If a blues fan is suprised that, being a villa supporter, I don't want birmingham city to win a match, how on earth is he arrogant?
 
That sort of pretext seems to be crossing a line to me

Not the surprise from a blues fan - that's OK - it's the expectation that you would, and allegations of envy/chips on the shoulder if you don't - I'd find it arrogant - kind of 'we're there, you're not you should want us to win' - WHY??

Hoping we would OK - Expecting - I would find arrogant. Like I've not got some choice to make.

There's no insult meant Jammer - But should we support another country... I don't see why & I don't know of any nation that expects their neighbours/allies to do so.

Again someone who likes to take someones words and quote them in a context that they weren't originally used. I never agrued or even suggested the point that anybody fellow Brit's supporting England MUST be envious or have a chip. I do believe I stated everybody is free to support who the wish. I have never said that any Scotland or any other fan should support England, infact in my first post on this thread I posted:

I really don't agree with Mr Moves statement that Scottish fans should support the English which was the final line of his original post so therefore the point of whether we should support Germany is not of any real consideration. The fact is people are free to support whatever team they choose and if they wish to adopt other countries/teams that is their choice.

So who said what that prompted you to say "it's the expectation that you would, and allegations of envy/chips on the shoulder if you don't", wasn't me. What I find arrogent is people who misrepresent another persons point of view to get their own point across.

Initially was going to flame back - (did actually).

Thank you for your accusations of arrogance. As you said, you don't expect a Scot to support England - I think that's the clue that the post wasn't about you. 

[jammer]

Flame retardance on This is a good thread and things are easily misquoted or misread.

[Rod Paradise]

Flame retardance on This is a good thread and things are easily misquoted or misread.

Indeed - and like I said above, I mean no insult to anyone.

BTW was talking to a mate who used to live in Barcelona - apparently lots of the Catalans don't support Spain.

[jammer]

Flame retardance on This is a good thread and things are easily misquoted or misread.

Indeed - and like I said above, I mean no insult to anyone.

BTW was talking to a mate who used to live in Barcelona - apparently lots of the Catalans don't support Spain.

Yup, and most of them frown upon speaking spanish. Have family there and they had to learn catalonian...

[thetank]

Again someone who likes to take someones words and quote them in a context that they weren't originally used. I never agrued or even suggested the point that anybody fellow Brit's supporting England MUST be envious or have a chip.

Am I missing something? At what point did Rod directly accuse you personally of doing such a thing? If we're talking about someone taking words and quoting them out of context.

[thediceman]

Well as I was the person to use the words envy and chip who else was you refering to when you made your point about arrogence???

As I said before, who said what that prompted you to say "it's the expectation that you would, and allegations of envy/chips on the shoulder if you don't" or is it just mere coincidence you just happened to use the words specific words I had used

Whether you directed your post towards me or not (lets be honest now) or even if it was "mere coincidence" that it appears directed to what I have previously said I have the right to challenge your arrogance suggestion "just incase" anybody reads your post as a rant against my comments as oppossed to a general rant.

To quote you "The demand for other nations in Britain to support England strikes me as arrogance. The declaration that not to do so is driven by envy, or recollections of 100's of years ago also seems arrogant". Interesting I mentioned history and used the words you attack as arrogent. Yet another coincedence  . Shame I didn't use them in the context you present.

p.s. I hope not expect  

[thediceman]

Again someone who likes to take someones words and quote them in a context that they weren't originally used. I never agrued or even suggested the point that anybody fellow Brit's supporting England MUST be envious or have a chip.

Am I missing something? At what point did Rod directly accuse you personally of doing such a thing? If we're talking about someone taking words and quoting them out of context.

Maybe I am guilty of taking some words out of context and it was all just mere coincidence, but I recall do you specifically misquoting me previously so if anybody is aware of taking someones words and using them out of context you provide the precedent.