Is it fair to do this?

[Scottish Dave]

dave

in a nutshell the debate started looking at animals, humans and morality. althouugh the subject has been explored in more depth, we are still debating the same issue

mad

ps no wine for me. its too strong for this time of the morning. ill stick to fruit juice

TBH Mad i didnt read any of the thread just the initial post, and burst out laughing, Sark must be a wined / whined / whwywhnned (sp?) up merchant

wind - as in what you do with a watch......

i take that as 'Wind' ie the wind is blowing in a northern direction

[matt674]

isnt the english language wonderful!

[JungleCat03]

Without wanting to get into a pernickety semantic debate, if you don't sustain something, it dies/ ceases to be.

What positive contribution has humanity made to the planet? Hmmmm, this is a very profound question. I would think a hundred people would give you a hundred different responses. Off the top of my head, I'll go for literature, language, art, technology, the simpsons, tuff-fish's bad beat videos, 24, bacon sandwiches, origami, eva longoria, football (not penalty kicks), the red hot chili peppers, blondepoker forum, guitars, alcohol, deodorant.

I'm sure i've left one or two things out.

yes unless you sustain something it dies and the most profound thing about your post is what you think humans have done for this planet.  how does football, the simsons or literature sustain the planet? you've lost me.
If humans gave up polluting the planet that would be a start but we are so greedy and self centred that most of us cant see the most important reality. LIFE! We are the scurge of the planet and the fact that there are kids out there who would toss a cat off a 10 story flat really worries me. i dont think i know anyone who would do that. well i hope not.
I think that the human race will wipe itself out and take every other species with it. we appear to have a desire to conquer what sustains us. we have a whole lot of learning to do and we are really just infants on this earth. we are more interested in what star is sleeping with who. our focus needs to change or we are doomed. we need to know that the earths lungs are healthy and we need to start practising preventative strategies to make sure the old lady is fit for purpose in another million years.


mad

You asked what positive contribution humanity has made to the planet, not what we have done to sustain the planet. I consider all the above positive contributions. I agree that we should protect and preserve our environment and the planet but not out of some magnamimous desire to safeguard a piece of rock, but just because living in a symbiotic rather than parasitic relationship with the earth will mean our species and the other species on the earth will continue to be able to live on it as our home for longer.


Ultimately when the planet dies as it almost inevitably will as the sun going red-giant leads to conditions where life as we know it will stop being able to exist, we will most likely be looking for a new home. The planet is jsut a home for us. It is not more important than the life on it, which hopefully will continue to exist long after the planet has died.

[madasahatstand]

how does literature contribute to the planet? it contributes to the development of humankind but not to the planet itself. what does humankind contrubute to the planet? lots of folk know how to do simple things to protect out environment but many couldnt give a toss. thats my point!!

[madasahatstand]

Are you saying that kids in Africa are not starving but have fundraising potential?

Not at all, i felt i made it quite clear that showing starving kids on the tv hits home far better than showing the political reasons (which is the real reason). In other words, if all fundraising was labelled "corrupt government appeal" instead of "starving kids", then the amounts raised would be far less. Seeing a starving kid is far more powerful and emotive than politically explaining how corrupt these governments are and then subsequently trying to get people to donate.

The 5 million people with HIV have so much money spent on them. thats the biggest bunch of bull Ive heard this side of Christmas. the problem the Africans have (apart from prevention) is that the big pharmaceutical companies have a monopoly on HIV drugs which cost an absolute fortune. Africans are dying needlessly because we have the drugs but they don't have the money to buy them. i may be wrong but i think you are saying this is OK because they would starve anyway? well thats how it reads to me. if this is what you mean, I'm really dissappointed. its an absolute disgrace and I'm ashamed at times to live in a western 'civilised' society. say we took socialist principles and shared all the material riches in the world with Africa and they shared their natural resources with us. we would not have these huge problems on the planet. but people are so greedy and they want to keep what they have as it gives them power and that power buys them more choices in life.

I don't see anything you have said which doesn't come under the "corrupt government" label, which is my main point here. My point on the AIDS fact was that by curing AIDS in Africa, it will only bring up a far worse problem, in that millions more people will be starving and the endless pursuit to feed people in Africa will continue and worsen. Band Aid started some 20/30 years ago and in my eyes has done very little to eradicate the problem. This is not to disrespect the people who have given generously and the people who work tirelessly trying to forge a better life for those less fortunate than them. The fact remains, i am still seeing the same kids starving and the same country in trouble - what has actually improved over the past 20/30 years? It's important to look at the issue as a whole, true there will be running water in places where there wasn't before and some people will live longer, more quality lives, however on the whole the situation is still dire and seems almost impossible to ever solve, unless we attack the real problem - the corrupt governments.

looks like I'm going to have a bad start to my day   good debate though but it rings home to me that changing the planet is a near to impossible task, even when you look at the different opinions on here for starters. scary!!

The world is littered with charities, many of whom do work far beyond what most of us would consider charitable. I would like to see the number of charities streamlined and rather than have 100 charities vying for my £10 per month, pool the skills of the very best into a few key charities who will actually work as a team to overcome the real problems. There are some fantastic charities out there and some amazing people, i would like to see them come together and work collectively, rather than compete with each other for the same £1.

Success stories are great to see, yet they are (in the bigger picture) very sparce. Aid from countries increases each year, charities raise more than ever before and yet i still see the same starving malnourished kids on tv. Its time to cure the disease, not keep dressing up and treating the wounds.

Much the same as "wiping out 3rd world debt", great idea that, then the corrupt governments can once again run up huge arrears and in 50 years time, we can have another appeal to "wipe out 3rd world debt" exactly what has happened in the past.

yes i get your angle but charities cannot take on the weight of corrupt government. they try to help the poverty and illness but could do more. in my opinion some charities are corrupt themselves si its about weeding those ones out and yes joining forces would go along way. take the aid direct to the people and not through the government who take the opportunity to make themselves rich at the expense of folk who really do need support.
maybe i read your post the wrong way but it did rile me as i though you were saying whats the point treating HIV and AIDs when folk will only die anyway. thats not true for everyone who has HIV and people should have the chance to be free of disease.

[Lee]

I think you did read my post the wrong way. All i want is the source of the problem addressed before anything else is, because as with most things in life, if the top is corrupt then eveything under it will be also. Cure the fundamental problem and the associated issues will all naturally improve along with it.

[JungleCat03]

how does literature contribute to the planet? it contributes to the development of humankind but not to the planet itself. what does humankind contrubute to the planet? lots of folk know how to do simple things to protect out environment but many couldnt give a toss. thats my point!!

Well amongst other things literature can educate people on environmental concerns.

I find the idea that humanity is a plague on the planet ludicrous. If you don't believe that humanity's development is inextricably linked to the development of the planet then I doubt I will ever sway you from your hopeless misanthropy.

[Colchester Kev]

"I find the idea that humanity is a plague on the planet ludicrous. If you don't believe that humanity's development is inextricably linked to the development of the planet then I doubt I will ever sway you from your hopeless misanthropy."


Can someone translate that for me please ... we never used big words at my school.

[Sark79]

"I find the idea that humanity is a plague on the planet ludicrous. If you don't believe that humanity's development is inextricably linked to the development of the planet then I doubt I will ever sway you from your hopeless misanthropy."


Can someone translate that for me please ... we never used big words at my school.

I am abit thick as well   .   I am still working my way through the Mr Men series of books for under 5's .  They are very tough to read .  I am confused as well   

[madasahatstand]

how does literature contribute to the planet? it contributes to the development of humankind but not to the planet itself. what does humankind contrubute to the planet? lots of folk know how to do simple things to protect out environment but many couldnt give a toss. thats my point!!

Well amongst other things literature can educate people on environmental concerns.

I find the idea that humanity is a plague on the planet ludicrous. If you don't believe that humanity's development is inextricably linked to the development of the planet then I doubt I will ever sway you from your hopeless misanthropy.

i dont remember saying that humanity was a plague on the planet? and no i dont think humanity's development is inextricably linked to the development of the planet. are you kidding. what is humanity doing to develop the planet? and literature that is available to all if they can read. It does not stop people treating the enivronment and the planet well. all environmentalists are doing is trying to prevent any more harm to the world, or are involved in tryiing to clean up mess left by humans.
you get me wrong if you think humans are a plague. i love humans and i know we can learn but humankind is in no way linked to the development of mother natures planet.

mad

[madasahatstand]

I think you did read my post the wrong way. All i want is the source of the problem addressed before anything else is, because as with most things in life, if the top is corrupt then eveything under it will be also. Cure the fundamental problem and the associated issues will all naturally improve along with it.

we both agree with that

[bolt pp]

You asked what positive contribution humanity has made to the planet, not what we have done to sustain the planet. I consider all the above positive contributions. I agree that we should protect and preserve our environment and the planet but not out of some magnamimous desire to safeguard a piece of rock, but just because living in a symbiotic rather than parasitic relationship with the earth will mean our species and the other species on the earth will continue to be able to live on it as our home for longer.


Ultimately when the planet dies as it almost inevitably will as the sun going red-giant leads to conditions where life as we know it will stop being able to exist, we will most likely be looking for a new home. The planet is jsut a home for us. It is not more important than the life on it, which hopefully will continue to exist long after the planet has died.
[/quote]

well said i completely agree

[bolt pp]

I once made a donation to the NSPCC in response to an appeal. The upshot was, they rang me and wrote to me at least once a week asking for more. In the end it must haver cost them more than I donated in phone calls and letters, every one made me feel horrible.

There must be a better way.

I give to the nspcc i think its one of the most deserving charities.

But I'll tell you where the animal charities go wrong in their advertising/campaigning, their t.v adverts are screened immediately before/after the nspcc advert.

I defy anyone compelled to pledge money to do so in favour of the animal charity when they've just heard how the money that they apportion for charitable donations could contribute to the salvation of children either living in poverty or the victim of some kind of abuse.

how can you give money to house a dog when your aware that the same amount of money could be used to help protect a child currently suffering abuse, and deprivation?

[Claw75]

I also support childrens charities, but agree with Red Dog about the heavy handed techniques imposed by the NSPCC.  I used to have a regular direct debit set up sending what I could afford every month. However, I kept getting bombarded with post saying "if you gave us an extra £x a month, this chid could be freed from abuse etc". It made me feel so guilty that I couldn't afford to give more, and I too thought that the money could be better spent than on target people already giving what they could.

I had to cancel the regular payments when I went on unpaid maternity leave, and didn't start them up again. I now give occasional lump sums anonymously so I'm not on the mailing list.

[Lee]

I understand your point, however on a personal front, if i saw an abused kitten advert and a starving child advert straight after, i could easily give to the kitten advert instead of the child one. The point is when you see these adverts, if you are going to be donating something, then one of those adverts will touch a place in your heart for whatever reason that may be. I have always loved cats, had them since i was 2 years old. I have seen one of my cats give birth to 3 litters, i've held one of her kittens in my arms as it squealed and took its last breath and then died. Ive lost 2 cats to old age, i've had one run over. Cats are a big part in my life. The disgusting story 2 days ago about the cat being tortured is the most effected i have ever been after watching something on tv. Far more than any poverty or food campaign for a starving child. I guess to put it bluntly, i could easily care more about the kitten, than i do about the child. If a starving child slept rough on the corner of my street and i saw him/her daily and they played a bigger part in my life, this could easily be reversed.

In writing this and reading what i'm writing, i understand this may seem a little strange, maybe not. Cats, animals, in fact all wildlife have a place in my heart. Wildlife is the most amazing and fascinating thing on this earth for me. I have had a starling for the past 6 weeks or so, who perches in the tree in my front garden and sings all day long, he has clicked that i have overseeded my lawn and the defenceless grass seeds are there for the taking. Far from being pissed off with this little fella, everytime i hear him singing he makes me smile. I spend half my day ensuring one of my 4 cats and the other 20 odd on my road do not put an end to this little fellas cheery life. This little fella has put more smiles on my face this year than any other single person. Whats more, he has done it completely unknowingly.

At the very start of the process of a child being born, two adults make a decision to have sex. The consequences of this act and the possible things that could occur after having sex are known by all involved. The child that comes into this world has a reason why he/she is there and someone to either blame or thank. Animals aren't like this, they (like us) have an instinct to reproduce, but that is all, whereas we have the instinct and intelligence to understand the complete process, what it means, what will happen, the world we will be bringing our offspring into etc.

Now of course when you compare a kitten to a child, they are equally innocent, however at some higher level the child being on this earth has a reason which can be accounted for and as such the kitten being on this earth is more innocent (for me) than the child.

About 5 years ago, i found one of the kittens of a new litter dead in my kitchen. The other 3 did not look too good either. At 3am i telephoned the vet and he said bring them straight up along with the mother. To cut a long story short the 3 kittens had a blood transfusion off the mother and intense medication for a few days. They survived. This process cost me just under £400. If at any stage somebody had asked me to let the cats die and donate the £400 to help starving children, i would never have agreed, even if the children were put in front of me. Some people love pets, some hate them, some don't care either way. Point being my cats are my kids and there would be very few who would take precedence over them in a decision where one had to die.

If my house was on fire and i realised my cat was stranded inside, i would not even think about my own safety, i would have to try and save her. My terrapin and monkey would fall into the same category. When i make a decision to have a pet, i am consciously deciding to take care of that animal for the next xx years of its life and that i will do everything i can to make its life happy and long.

If you are giving, whether that be to a child or an animal, it matters not. Bringing a smile or some happiness to something else other than yourself is one of the most valuable assets you have. Ponder not on which cause to donate, the important thing is that you are giving. There are enough people in this world, with enough varying views to ensure that donations are spread across the spectrum. Just go with your heart.