Launch of the Amateur Poker Association & Tour (APAT)

[Ironside]

I have no problems playing against anybody however the APAT competitions have been declared as to provided recreational/hobby players with the oppunitunity to experience playing events with deeper stacked structures such as may be played in the main events at various UK festivals. However we are getting people who already play these main event festival wanting to play in these APAT events because they may be fun. For me to allow any player who already has had the experience to play at these level of games just means that it goes against the original concept of giving those that haven't the opportunity the chance of something new.

Re: defining pro/amateurstatus I think it is a waste of time as it is clear people disagree on what factors should be used to define these categories. I think it is impossible to define a players status by the amount of there poker winnings as this is impossible to monitor 100%. This is very difficult at best and in reality unworkable. I also disagree that a players pro/amateur status should be defined by the rankings as in reality most people would still qualify to play even those who play in many a main event already.

The defining factor for me is, have these players experienced the format of a big game tournament before, ie are these players regular faces that have been seen on the UK festival circuit. Such a loose definition is enough that it gives a clear indication of whether you can people in the APAT event yet allow the organisers the flexibility to employ their own discretion. To allow players who have already experienced playing it such levels really in the spirit of the initial concept "to provide an experience to the recreational/hobby player". I understand some festival players want to play for the social element but to allow them to do so merely weakens the concept this is an amateur poker association and rather redefines it as an anybody poker association.

Imagine the APATs first final table, we have Red Dog, Wardonkey, Rob Yong, a number of others regular faces from the UK festival circuit. Yes I'm sure it will be a great fun event as these are likeable characters but is it a final of recreational/hobby players and does it give any real creditability that this is an amateur competition organised by an association with the amateur players interests in mind???.

i have played a main event at blackpool and 3 £750 events at the vic but poker is a hobby for me and by no discription could i be classed as a pro apart from your discription

but i play less than 8 live events a year and on average play less than 1 hour a day online

[tikay]

Clock

Pretty much the same as "structure", reallly the two are allied.

Mel had the same straitjacket within which to work.

We CAN change it Pre Event One

We CAN change it Post Event One.

We WILL canvass Members exteinsively at Event One.

We wll seek the Members Committee's (still to be formed) view on this. Until then, we will look, listen, & decide.

We will NOT change the clock mid-Event.

We originally agreed on 45 minutes, as I recall, & I think we eventually decided it needed to be 40 minutes, to accomodate the playing hours "window".

It's very easy to change. If it needs changing, we wlill change it.

Not a problem.

[tikay]

Taking on board ideas.

We are grateful for all suggestions, whomsoever from.

But it's our Members views that we really need to pay closest attention to. They take the trouble, & expense, to be part of our Association, so it is to those that we must pay most heed. We need to collate their views, implement them, or lobby for their implementation. This is the really exciting part of this new-born baby - the thought that we can change things for the better, by force of organised opinion. If APAT can get off to a successful start, we are on our way.

[tikay]

Tournament Rules

We wanted one size fits all, but that's not possible, due to GC constraints in the UK.

With Tourneys planned for the UK, the RoI, Mainland Europe, & America, we eventually realised we'd essentially have two sets - UK, & The Rest, as it were.

We started, as we had to begin somewhere, with something akin to the Rules the WSOP use, & customised them, provided by Mel I think.

Des, Tighty, & myself, went through them line-by line over 3 or 4 hours of Conference Calls, over 3 nights as I recall.

The rules CAN be changed.

The Rules WILL be reviewed Post Event One. (Indeed Pre-Event one if we see a problem).

The Rules will NOT be changed during Event One, or any Event in fact.

"Our" version of UK Rules needed GC Approval. The process we engaged in was to negotiate with The Broadway's Compliance Officer, who, in turn, after adding helpful input, negotiated them with the GC. After some toing & froing, & with minimal editing, these Rules were accepted by the GC & The Broadway. For compliance reasons, although Mel will be TD, The Broadway will, during Event One, have the right to oversee, over-rule, or amend in order to remain GC compliant.

We will canvass our Mmbers extensively on our Rules.

[tikay]

Well, it's 0630, I need to be at Manchester Airport at 0900 to collect the Boy Thewy, so I'm sorry, I'm out of time. I will continue this pocess later, though I'll maybe need some sleep this afternoon, when I get back home. Bear with me please.

But I would just caution some of you who are getting a bit het up over a few things - the Reg Fee for example.

Somehow, this has been turned round into something it is not.

One post has led to another, & it's all been presented as something sinister, APAT are somehow pulling a flanker.

This is not the case, not at all, & the way the story has grown suggests there is something less than proper about it.

I will explain, in detail, how we arrived at "position 1", and it's not what, or how, some of you appear to think. This "you are pinching the £6.76/£7/50", & "circumventing the system" thing is just wrong.

With the best will in the world, I seriously suggset you do NOT speculate further on this particular hobby-horse until I have Posted our clarification on it.

It astonishes me that anyone would think we'd somehow "pinch" 6 or 7 qiud, or diddle The Broadway out of anything.

I strongly suggest you refrain from making such suggestions until I have clarified this. We are honourable people, & you can be sure none of us have the slightest intention of having our integrity compromised one iota for the princely sum for 6 or 7 quid per head. Please wait until I have clarified the position - thank you. I will explain how we got where we are, where we are, & how we move forward on it. You are in for a shock, those of you that suggested something we intended to do was improper, or even wrong. So please refrain, until I clarify.

Other "Headings" still to be addressed.

Capacity, & how we determine who gets a seat, if we sell out.

What is an Amateur?

Why a Membership Fee?

Remind me what other Headings need addressing, please.

OK, I'm sorry I could not get through the whole list, but I've got to get on the road.

Have a good day, & thanks for your patience.

[Jon MW]

...  blondeite Jon MW has been pretty supportive in his replies, so much so, that in conversation with a few blondes yesterday & today, they actually thought he ... was part of APAT. This is not so (so far as I know!), &, I hope I don't give offence here but I don't think I know the Member. Just thought I'd clear that up. Can't be too careful!

 

Sorry, no, apart from being a member I have nothing to do with APAT.

I'm just an individual with a view as to what is in the best interest of APAT. The pro/am debate is something which will define the future and direction of the Tour part of APAT and as such is an issue which I believe is worth defending. I did put at the end of one of my posts that I felt sorry for the people who actually have to make the decisions, this was deliberately to distance myself from the organisers as I was aware that I had contributed quite a few posts on the subject but please accept my apologies if anybody felt mislead.

BTW the only other issues which have been brought up which I believe need looking at for future events are the registration process and the length of time between a tournament and it's registration. Some people would prefer longer than a month to ensure that they can make arrangements for time off work and good hotel and travel deals.

On a more general note - shouldn't there be a FAQ section on the APAT website itself for those members of APAT who are foolish enough not to be blondeites?

[Bongo]

I have another question, do you ever sleep tikay?

[thetank]

I have bit of a serious question to ask, just to let everyone know I have joined and think it's a great idea,

however the question is  how do we tell the difference between a professional and an amateur?

Answer is 42...

I see what Tank replied to this, however i think war may have been refering to the answer to the question in Hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy. I could be wrong.

 

Hence the Mr. Adams reference.

Keep up Billy 

[thediceman]

I have no problems playing against anybody however the APAT competitions have been declared as to provided recreational/hobby players with the oppunitunity to experience playing events with deeper stacked structures such as may be played in the main events at various UK festivals. However we are getting people who already play these main event festival wanting to play in these APAT events because they may be fun. For me to allow any player who already has had the experience to play at these level of games just means that it goes against the original concept of giving those that haven't the opportunity the chance of something new.

Re: defining pro/amateurstatus I think it is a waste of time as it is clear people disagree on what factors should be used to define these categories. I think it is impossible to define a players status by the amount of there poker winnings as this is impossible to monitor 100%. This is very difficult at best and in reality unworkable. I also disagree that a players pro/amateur status should be defined by the rankings as in reality most people would still qualify to play even those who play in many a main event already.

The defining factor for me is, have these players experienced the format of a big game tournament before, ie are these players regular faces that have been seen on the UK festival circuit. Such a loose definition is enough that it gives a clear indication of whether you can people in the APAT event yet allow the organisers the flexibility to employ their own discretion. To allow players who have already experienced playing it such levels really in the spirit of the initial concept "to provide an experience to the recreational/hobby player". I understand some festival players want to play for the social element but to allow them to do so merely weakens the concept this is an amateur poker association and rather redefines it as an anybody poker association.

Imagine the APATs first final table, we have Red Dog, Wardonkey, Rob Yong, a number of others regular faces from the UK festival circuit. Yes I'm sure it will be a great fun event as these are likeable characters but is it a final of recreational/hobby players and does it give any real creditability that this is an amateur competition organised by an association with the amateur players interests in mind???.

i have played a main event at blackpool and 3 £750 events at the vic but poker is a hobby for me and by no discription could i be classed as a pro apart from your discription

but i play less than 8 live events a year and on average play less than 1 hour a day online

I'm really not interested in this classification of whether someone is a pro or not because I think it is impossible to define and even harder to monitor. What I have dared to suggest is that as the APAT competitions are designed to give a new experience to those who have not had the opportunity to play a deep stack, main event style structure in a live envirnoment before. I personally think this is better than allowing an amatuer comptetion to feature a large number of players who have already experienced these type of competitions which will result in excluding of those players who haven't.

Your not a clerely not a professional poker player but a recreational player who loves the game. However you have had the opportunity to play the bigger events. Do you comply with the APAT's original stated intention is questionable. The answer is probably not but the organisers will always have the discretion to employ the "common sense rule". Remember they themselves have yet to finalise their terms so I guess it's a case of wait and see. I have merely made a suggestion that is workable rather than the open to abuse self police agruement. I'm sure someone players will always fall into a grey area whatever defining policy is finally decided upon.

Do you think it is better to have an event that almost anybody can enter and see the "amateur" events full of players who in contrast to getting the opportunity of playing something new have already experience. Kind of goes against "creating a new experience for those who have not experienced it" and surely in danger of become nothing more than the same old, same old, game for the boys which clearly I don't believe is what this association is aiming for. As Tightend has said, we will have to wait and see what is decided and I'm confident the association will sort something to be a reasonable clarification to most, it's never going to be all, and ensure the tour is for largely new faces. The APAT team is one that is clearly putting itself out there for the development of the game and the interests of the players so good luck to the in this matter. Just don't put me on a table with 7/8 players who have played main event festival tournaments and are clearely more then "a recreational/hobby" player. I might be asking for a refund  lol

[ripple11]

 As usual .... sensible, honest, thorough replies from Tikay.....and as he says its good to debate all these issues, and give suggestions/solutions.

The bottom line is that with people like Tikay, Tighty and Mel involved, we know we're in good hands.

[byronkincaid]

Do you comply with the APAT's original stated intention is questionable. The answer is probably not

I think you seem to be making stuff up. Where does it say on their website that only fish who have never played live before are allowed to play. The stated aim of the association as far as I can read is

The Association aspires to represent the interests of all non professional players in the UK.

I watched 425 last night and I think I'm right in saying Tikay said it's for the 99% of players who aren't sponsored pro's.

To say iron doesn't comply with the stated intention is ridiculous imo.

I'm saying outta this thread now until Tikay clarifies their position on this.

[Jon MW]

Do you comply with the APAT's original stated intention is questionable. The answer is probably not

I think you seem to be making stuff up. Where does it say on their website that only fish who have never played live before are allowed to play...

This is where it says it

...APAT is aimed squarely at the recreational player, possibly moving for the first time into a live environment...

That's not to say that they would be fish.

[TightEnd]

Jon, we see those players being our core market

However it is not, in the stated aims, ONLY for them

anyway, bear with us, as tikay says we'll get there

[Jon MW]

Jon, we see those players being our core market

However it is not, in the stated aims, ONLY for them

anyway, bear with us, as tikay says we'll get there

That was the intention of providing that quote - use of the word possibly suggested that this would represent the core market (but not the whole market).

[Colchester Kev]

OK, it's 0450, & I have to meet a friend at Manchester Airport at 0900, so I need to be away by 0600.

It was all going so well, then you have to go and spoil it all with this bit of fiction .... tikay has a friend ??  no one is gonna buy that ffs