Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)

[Harry Demetriou]

Hi Everyone...its been a while...but being laid up due to some cold virus means I have loads of time to write meaningless drivel on the net over the next day or so.

Anyway I was just wondering what criteria people use for backing others in tournaments?

Personally I think it is a loss making proposition but in todays game a very high proportion of players are put into tournaments by others and I cannot for the life of me understand why. The people wanting backing simply do not represent a fair chance of making a return or seem to think they are worth an excessive amount more than there true worth even when they do get the backing.

On numerous ocaissions people have come up to me and asked me to put them into tournaments and spun me a line about how there is a lot of dead money in the game and how they are a brilliant player and that if I put them in they would give me 50% of the return but quite frankly I am almost invariably going to come out with a point blank no.

Over a series of tournaments there are many players who are put in with a make up deal. eg You put someone into 100k worth of tournaments and then at the end of it all you get your 100k back and then split any profits 50/50. Some deals involve allowing for expenses for the player too but imo absoilutely no deal should allow for those as this could encourage the player to fiddle the accounts or live the high life at your expense. If at the end of the series the player didn't return the 100k then he could still owe you the 100k or any part of it but he wouldn't have to pay you it until he made a score at some future time.

The there is the one off deal where you put someone into a solitary tournament and then after your entry fee you split any winnings on a pre agreed percentage basis. As this is a one off it would be more typical that this would be split on a 70/30 basis in favour of the backer but depending on the players experience and abilities it could once again be a 50/50 deal but there would be no make up ie the player doesn't owe you the entry fee at some future date.

So now we have to consider what to look for in a player before deciding whether or not to back them.

But why should a player want backing? He is either broke or hasn't the bankroll to cope with the volatility and this could have come about for a number of reasons but I see little point in going there or discussing why the player needs or wants the backing.

The first kind of question I would need to think about would be whether the player was a winning player or not?

It always amazes me how mediocre losing players make up the overwhelming majority of those requesting backing and as such it is clear they represent loss making propositions so I have to ask how much money the person has made over the last year and would want a breakdown of how much he has paiud in entries and how much he has cashed. If he can't do this or says he has no records then it makes it a lot easier to say no and if they do have accurate verifiable figures then you can have a decent guage as to how much of a profit they are likely to return.

In todays game where so much is taken out in entry fees and tips for the dealers (typically totals around 9-13% and in smaller events considerably more) I find it very hard to believe that there are many players who return a profit. If on top of this you have to give away 30% or more to the player of returns then it becomes nigh on impossible to believe anyone at all makes a profit.

If we assume that 10% is taken out of a tournament prize pool then if you played 100 x $1000 buy in tournaments of 100 players as an average player you would expect to cash 10% of the time if 10% of the field were paid but this would only give back to you $90k of your $100k in total entriesas the other $10k is removed for fees and/or staff.

So to overcome this $10k deficit you are going to have to perform around 11% better than the average player which means as an approximation that you are going to have to be 2 standard deviations better than average to simply break even which means that only 5 of the hundred players who play thiis series of events is going to break even or do better than break even. If on top of this you have to give 30% or more to the player as a backer it becomes pretty clear that backing players is going to be a monster loss making proposition.

Of course if you have a significantly better than average player or play in a tournament where there are large numbers of below average players then you are going to have a chance as a player and backer of making money but still whatever the scenario returning a profit is going to be a really tough thing to achieve.

I just wondered what criteria others would use before bankrolling another player in tournaments because despite having done so myself in the past have always done it more as a favour to a friend rather than as a backer seeking a profit because quite frankly I have never come across any deal that was even remotely viable to the backer.

In a cash game it is a far simpler decision making process because it is easy to ascertain whether or not a player is a winning player or not and those kinds of arrangements are a lot easier to manage.

Any comments any may have on this area of poker would be welcomed.

BTW I am not talking about players exchanging small percentages of themselves with each other as this is a common practice and used to negate some of the extreme volatility in tournament play results.

[AndrewT]

I think the idea of backing players in tournaments is a remnant of the 'olden' days of tournament poker when there would genuinely be a lot of dead money in events. The knowledge of fundamental basic, solid tournament strategy was not as widespread and many players would be genuinely out of their depth as they would play their standard cash-game strategy and not be able to work out how they could not accumulate chips

Stu Ungar's record of winning a third of the tournaments he entered could not even be approached today, even though there are better tournament players than him, simply because the median entrant in big events has more chance to win these days. Previous 'bad' players would allow themselves to get blinded off/pushed out of pots - the average player today isn't afraid to stick it in and, if the luck runs his way, that's a strategy which can't be countered with skill.

The edge that the best players in the field have has reduced with time, as events have more players, and thus relatively faster clocks etc, which improves Joe Luckbox's chance of winning even more.

Having said all that, Harry, I am more than willing to sell you 20% of myself in next year's WSOP for the bargain price of $4000...

[Harry Demetriou]

I think I'll pass on that offer:-)

However I had an interesting discussion with a few friends in Vegas just prior to the start of the main event at The WSOP this year and we kind of came to a concensus view that the main event was probably the only one where you could give a player a free 30% freeroll for putting them into the event.

[AndrewT]

You're right Harry - the opening day table I got in the WSOP this year was one of the easiest I have ever sat down at, and that includes £20 freezeouts. The sheer number of players with no prior live experience creates a lot of chips up for grabs and provides a good overlay for the pro.

Of course, given the size of the event, and that there's only one a year, there's a high degree of variance in backing someone in it.

[Harry Demetriou]

Unfortunately despite having a relatively easy table on day1c it still didn't stop me from going to the rail just after the dinner break:-(

No hard luck stories just the way it is sometimes.

[tikay]

Thanks Harry. I pretty much concur with your comments, except, I think you've omitted one aspect where backing players has merit.

I refer to newbies, or relative newbies, who clearly have the game to succeed, but need a little help to get on the merry-go-round.

I can think of at least two players who are doing very well now, who I supported via "investment" in their early days. Maybe they would have made it without help, we will never know. But it's immensely fulfilling to go this route, & the "dividend" - cash apart - lasts for ever.

So I've backed several newbies, & if I saw someone who I thought would benefit from such help, I'd do it again.

But as to your main point, you are entirely right. The shameless parasites who wander round before Tourneys "wanna buy x% of me?" need not bother asking. I would never back anyone who asked to be backed. I can lose my money without their help, & enjoy myself along the way!

Glad you are a lttle better Harry, you were not too well last time we spoke.

For the record, Harry is a shareholder in blonde, & has been 100% supportive throughout. We are proud to have him on board.

[AndrewT]

So I've backed several newbies, & if I saw someone who I thought would benefit from such help, I'd do it again.

Tikay, would you be interested in taking up my offer 20% of me at next year's WSOP?

The shameless parasites who wander round before Tourneys "wanna buy x% of me?" need not bother asking. I would never back anyone who asked to be backed.

Oh...

[thetank]

There was me listning to his advice on what constitutes a good investment, and it turns out he's got money in blonde! There goes my faith. 

I'm off to back a pissed GlasgowBandit at roulette. 

[Newmanseye]

Well it tikay is taking %'s of people, I am playing in the $0.60 freezeout on blonde and i am offering 30% for $2.00   

[matt674]

Thanks Harry. I pretty much concur with your comments, except, I think you've omitted one aspect where backing players has merit.

I refer to newbies, or relative newbies, who clearly have the game to succeed, but need a little help to get on the merry-go-round.

I can think of at least two players who are doing very well now, who I supported via "investment" in their early days. Maybe they would have made it without help, we will never know. But it's immensely fulfilling to go this route, & the "dividend" - cash apart - lasts for ever.

So I've backed several newbies, & if I saw someone who I thought would benefit from such help, I'd do it again.

But as to your main point, you are entirely right. The shameless parasites who wander round before Tourneys "wanna buy x% of me?" need not bother asking. I would never back anyone who asked to be backed. I can lose my money without their help, & enjoy myself along the way!

Glad you are a lttle better Harry, you were not too well last time we spoke.

For the record, Harry is a shareholder in blonde, & has been 100% supportive throughout. We are proud to have him on board.

So if you have never backed anyone who has asked to be backed i take it then that it was you who approached the newbie to offer "investment"?

If this is the case then how did you go about it, did you just go right out and offer at the cardroom?

Also what was it that you saw that made you feel that your money would be well "invested"? (i.e. what do i need to do to get someone to "invest" in me )

[boldie]

I'm off to back a pissed GlasgowBandit at roulette. 

[AndrewT]

So if you have never backed anyone who has asked to be backed i take it then that it was you who approached the newbie to offer "investment"?

If this is the case then how did you go about it, did you just go right out and offer at the cardroom?

Also what was it that you saw that made you feel that your money would be well "invested"? (i.e. what do i need to do to get someone to "invest" in me )

Matt, I am prepared to stake you in your next tournament - please accept this investment.

[tikay]

Thanks Harry. I pretty much concur with your comments, except, I think you've omitted one aspect where backing players has merit.

I refer to newbies, or relative newbies, who clearly have the game to succeed, but need a little help to get on the merry-go-round.

I can think of at least two players who are doing very well now, who I supported via "investment" in their early days. Maybe they would have made it without help, we will never know. But it's immensely fulfilling to go this route, & the "dividend" - cash apart - lasts for ever.

So I've backed several newbies, & if I saw someone who I thought would benefit from such help, I'd do it again.

But as to your main point, you are entirely right. The shameless parasites who wander round before Tourneys "wanna buy x% of me?" need not bother asking. I would never back anyone who asked to be backed. I can lose my money without their help, & enjoy myself along the way!

Glad you are a lttle better Harry, you were not too well last time we spoke.

For the record, Harry is a shareholder in blonde, & has been 100% supportive throughout. We are proud to have him on board.

So if you have never backed anyone who has asked to be backed i take it then that it was you who approached the newbie to offer "investment"?

If this is the case then how did you go about it, did you just go right out and offer at the cardroom?

Also what was it that you saw that made you feel that your money would be well "invested"? (i.e. what do i need to do to get someone to "invest" in me )

They were & are friends. And I'm almost embarrassed to admit that I made a lot of money out of those investments, though not always from the original deal. They still "swap" with me to this day, how satisfying is that? My judgement as to their ability & character was spot-on. Makes a change, for me!

[Colchester Kev]

Thanks Harry. I pretty much concur with your comments, except, I think you've omitted one aspect where backing players has merit.

I refer to newbies, or relative newbies, who clearly have the game to succeed, but need a little help to get on the merry-go-round.

I can think of at least two players who are doing very well now, who I supported via "investment" in their early days. Maybe they would have made it without help, we will never know. But it's immensely fulfilling to go this route, & the "dividend" - cash apart - lasts for ever.

So I've backed several newbies, & if I saw someone who I thought would benefit from such help, I'd do it again.

But as to your main point, you are entirely right. The shameless parasites who wander round before Tourneys "wanna buy x% of me?" need not bother asking. I would never back anyone who asked to be backed. I can lose my money without their help, & enjoy myself along the way!

Glad you are a lttle better Harry, you were not too well last time we spoke.

For the record, Harry is a shareholder in blonde, & has been 100% supportive throughout. We are proud to have him on board.

So if you have never backed anyone who has asked to be backed i take it then that it was you who approached the newbie to offer "investment"?

If this is the case then how did you go about it, did you just go right out and offer at the cardroom?

Also what was it that you saw that made you feel that your money would be well "invested"? (i.e. what do i need to do to get someone to "invest" in me )

They were & are friends. And I'm almost embarrassed to admit that I made a lot of money out of those investments, though not always from the original deal. They still "swap" with me to this day, how satisfying is that? My judgement as to their ability & character was spot-on. Makes a change, for me!

Stop it grandad, you are embarrassing me

[Rookie (Rodney)]

Thanks Harry. I pretty much concur with your comments, except, I think you've omitted one aspect where backing players has merit.

I refer to newbies, or relative newbies, who clearly have the game to succeed, but need a little help to get on the merry-go-round.

I can think of at least two players who are doing very well now, who I supported via "investment" in their early days. Maybe they would have made it without help, we will never know. But it's immensely fulfilling to go this route, & the "dividend" - cash apart - lasts for ever.

So I've backed several newbies, & if I saw someone who I thought would benefit from such help, I'd do it again.

But as to your main point, you are entirely right. The shameless parasites who wander round before Tourneys "wanna buy x% of me?" need not bother asking. I would never back anyone who asked to be backed. I can lose my money without their help, & enjoy myself along the way!

Glad you are a lttle better Harry, you were not too well last time we spoke.

For the record, Harry is a shareholder in blonde, & has been 100% supportive throughout. We are proud to have him on board.

So if you have never backed anyone who has asked to be backed i take it then that it was you who approached the newbie to offer "investment"?

If this is the case then how did you go about it, did you just go right out and offer at the cardroom?

Also what was it that you saw that made you feel that your money would be well "invested"? (i.e. what do i need to do to get someone to "invest" in me )

They were & are friends. And I'm almost embarrassed to admit that I made a lot of money out of those investments, though not always from the original deal. They still "swap" with me to this day, how satisfying is that? My judgement as to their ability & character was spot-on. Makes a change, for me!

I dont get why you would say your embarrassed to say you made some money out of those? You saw something you liked in the player and gave them there chance by "backing" them to a certain extent. You deserve your share for helping give them the chance too.