A question for you......

[tikay]

I don't mind it, keeps the game moving a little faster.

So the expert loses a little edge to the beginner, well I want a few beginners to win a few tournaments now and then.

When I hear the more vehement arguments against dealers sorting chips on their own initiative, I think, whatever happened to...."You gotta give action to get action"

Out the window it seems, miserable types hang on with bitter fingernails to all edges they can get. String bet string bet string bet.

You may well be Right Mr Tank Sir, which is precisely why I asked the question.

[londonpokergirl]

Rules are changing from day to day, cardroom to cardroom

What may help a little is the guy who pushed all in , seat next to him folds instantaniously
and the next seat is staring at the chips.  The dealer notices that he is staring at the chips and puts the chips in piles to help the player count the all in stack.

Dealer announces to player what the all in amount it.

Both me and Raj said at the time its not a problem. You could see that the player was needing help in finding out what the amount was, and the dealer helped him.

I can understand that sometimes when you push all in that you don't want people to know what the exact amount is, because you maybe have a huge stack of small chips and want to make your bet look bigger than it is, but you also have to look at the situation and go with common sense.  A player is looking at the chip stack in the middle and looking at his chip stack.  Its obvious what the outcome is, the dealer just helped the player by announcing how much it was

In this situation dealer did a good job.

I was NOT referring to any given situation Mel, it's just a general question I am trying to get right in my mind.

The question was, is it correct, or wrong, & why?

I have always been 100 dealer-supportive - but they deserve to know what the rules are, & why, so they can enforce them fairly, & with common-sense.

I don't know what the rule is, or why, & I'm trying to assess what's right. I just know tht most players are opposed to it & think it's wrong, but I'm trying to find out the whys & wherefores.

To be honest ok my situation was slightly different in that you could see that an Internet player was looking at the chips and dealer was helping and used common sense, not a problem

In my honest opinion an all in bet shouldn't be announced unless a player asks for a count, however you have to use common sense.   The onus is on the players involved to ask for a count, but with lots of more internet players making the breakthrough into live games and lots of newbies coming onto the scene, they need a little help here and there

[roverthtaeh]

Hi,
I don't know if newbies are allowed opinions on such topics, but here's mine anyway....
The key is, 'the geezer is all in'.
A really good player knows at all times which opponents he out-chips, and which opponents out-chip him.
A count is only required for an all-in call decision if chip stacks are very close. i.e. will I be out or will I still be alive.
A count should only be conducted at a player's request, no matter how helpful the dealer intends to be.

Then again, I'm no expert!

Love the forum, by the way

[matt674]

Precisely. The insertion of the word "only", albeit unintentional, probably changed the guys decision.

It did - that and the fact he had the 3000 chips in his hand holding them towards the player. the dealer recognized that it was an instant call but the player didn't until the dealer all but spelt it out to him.

When i have dealt in a self deal tourney i will never announce the amount of a raise until a player asks "how much?". If a player is unsure all they have to do is ask the dealer for a count - its not that difficult!

I have to admit i can count chips quite accurately in a dirty stack (there was a player at BB3 who seemed surprised that i knew how many chips he had when he went all in with all his chips mixed togehter) but there have been times when i've asked the dealer to count the chips in the pot to then work out the odds i'm getting to call.

[mikkyT]

Nothing wrong with this. Just an experienced player getting his bitter bullying knickers in a twist because someone told him it was wrong to steal the 1st year kids dinner money.

When I am dealing, I always stack pots so they can be easily counted - usually in stacks of same denomination chips. I have had a couple of the regulars chastise me for doing it because it is taking away our edge. But I know what it was like when I first started - keeping track of a pot was impossible and with the chips in a massive pile on the table, counting a pot was not going to happen.

When a player makes an all-in bet, I make sure the chips can be seen easily (some players don't even push them over the line) and I instantly turn to the other player and offer a count although I don't instantly count (well, not verbally anyway lol).

I must be doing something right because I am always asked to deal, without fail. Often by the same regulars who chasitise me and end up dealing all night at most games.

[tikay]

Rules are changing from day to day, cardroom to cardroom

What may help a little is the guy who pushed all in , seat next to him folds instantaniously
and the next seat is staring at the chips.  The dealer notices that he is staring at the chips and puts the chips in piles to help the player count the all in stack.

Dealer announces to player what the all in amount it.

Both me and Raj said at the time its not a problem. You could see that the player was needing help in finding out what the amount was, and the dealer helped him.

I can understand that sometimes when you push all in that you don't want people to know what the exact amount is, because you maybe have a huge stack of small chips and want to make your bet look bigger than it is, but you also have to look at the situation and go with common sense.  A player is looking at the chip stack in the middle and looking at his chip stack.  Its obvious what the outcome is, the dealer just helped the player by announcing how much it was

In this situation dealer did a good job.

I was NOT referring to any given situation Mel, it's just a general question I am trying to get right in my mind.

The question was, is it correct, or wrong, & why?

I have always been 100 dealer-supportive - but they deserve to know what the rules are, & why, so they can enforce them fairly, & with common-sense.

I don't know what the rule is, or why, & I'm trying to assess what's right. I just know tht most players are opposed to it & think it's wrong, but I'm trying to find out the whys & wherefores.

To be honest ok my situation was slightly different in that you could see that an Internet player was looking at the chips and dealer was helping and used common sense, not a problem

In my honest opinion an all in bet shouldn't be announced unless a player asks for a count, however you have to use common sense.   The onus is on the players involved to ask for a count, but with lots of more internet players making the breakthrough into live games and lots of newbies coming onto the scene, they need a little help here and there

I could not agree more, Mel, "common-sense" must apply, & I'm a huge believer in common-sense. I repeat, I did not refer to any specific incident.

But your reply raises a further question. Yes, I agree, hypothetically, the newbie would-be-caller may well have needed some help. Fair enough. But what about the all-in-er?.....He has rights. too. Maybe he did not want his stack to be annuonced, unless Oppo-Man requsted it. Does he have that right, that his stack won't be anounced to one & all, unless someone IN THE HAND requests it? When I know the answer to that, I can get my head round the rights & wrongs of it.

I'm trying to get it clear in my mind - what is correct, & what is, potentially, unfair, to BOTH parties. Because, as sure as God made little apples, the scenario will arise, &, like me, I know you are working towards some consistency in these things. The rules of Association Football, Rugby Union, Tennis, Squash, any large-scale organised activity, are always consisent wherever the event takes place, & no matter under who's auspices the event is promoted.

[matt674]

If you are a player - its simple..............

"IF YOU ARE NOT SURE - ASK"

Then the dealer can help and no-one can have any objections

[AndrewT]

The play in live games is slow enough at the best of times, as compared to the internet. What's the betting that the players who complain about dealers speeding the game up by announcing bets are the same ones giving big Hollywood dwells, chastising dealers for not dealing quickly enough and then making a big fuss about how the blind levels should be longer because 'it's turned into a crapshoot'.

[dik9]

My 2 cents

If the money has crossed the line, that is now the dealers responsiblity. He/she should know how much is there, remember the "how much is in the pot debate"?

If more than one person is left to call then the dealer should say how much it is to call (in the uk anyway) to keep the flow of the game. The dealer SHOULD NOT COMMENT AT ALL especially using words like "only...". Head to head, then the dealer should remain in silence until asked, but still know how much is there upon request.

It is the experienced player that usually uses this trick head to head, with small denomination chips making themselves look strong, and more often than not it is the experienced player that will object. The easiest way to make this play "low chips, that look like a large amount" is to just declare "all-in" without moving your chips. It is usually followed by the opponent by "How much is it" or a fold. If it is a how much, then the chips should pass the line so the dealer can count it.

IMO it is a small stroke pull, for the objectors. As such it should be announced.

It is the players responsibilty to see how much goes into the pot, but more often than not (especially low value chips, lots of) they are chucked in the middle willy nilly, how can anyone count these in a mound? I never understand why people count out chips in nice little stacks, then push them forward, knocking them everywhere? Is it in a players manual to do this

[thetank]

If you are a player - its simple..............

"IF YOU ARE NOT SURE - ASK"

Then the dealer can help and no-one can have any objections

Which is an ok philosophy if you don't consider that most new players will not ask when they should, for (amongst other reasons) fear of looking silly.

[mikkyT]

Precisely. The insertion of the word "only", albeit unintentional, probably changed the guys decision.

It did - that and the fact he had the 3000 chips in his hand holding them towards the player. the dealer recognized that it was an instant call but the player didn't until the dealer all but spelt it out to him.

When i have dealt in a self deal tourney i will never announce the amount of a raise until a player asks "how much?". If a player is unsure all they have to do is ask the dealer for a count - its not that difficult!

I think you raise a good point here matt with regards to self-deal anyway. Dealers are also players. It is to the dealers advantage that the all-in bet is called and the player is knocked out. We know the situation, you are X places to the money (or already in the money) and every player knocked out moves you up the prized ladder. We all know how much a short stack can change the dynamics of the table. The dealer could very well be influencing the newbies decision, giving him every bit of information possible so that he doesn't make the mistake of folding simply because the dealer wants the other player (you in this case) out.

[mjrevie]

When I am dealing, I always stack pots so they can be easily counted - usually in stacks of same denomination chips. I have had a couple of the regulars chastise me for doing it because it is taking away our edge. But I know what it was like when I first started - keeping track of a pot was impossible and with the chips in a massive pile on the table, counting a pot was not going to happen.

When a player makes an all-in bet, I make sure the chips can be seen easily (some players don't even push them over the line) and I instantly turn to the other player and offer a count although I don't instantly count (well, not verbally anyway lol).

I think you need to make a distinction between a paid dealer and someone volunteering to do it for the table and who is also playing. If I'm playing in a tournie and dealing (like Mikky) then i'll do whatever i think is necessary to speed up the decision for someone, even if that means offering a count to someone who hasnt asked. I've offered to do the table a favour and if people are unhappy with my style of dealing then they are more than welcome to take over from me. If I was a pro-dealer or dealing at a final table, i'd keep my mouth shut and wait to be asked.

[tikay]

If you are a player - its simple..............

"IF YOU ARE NOT SURE - ASK"

Then the dealer can help and no-one can have any objections

Which is an ok philosophy if you don't consider that most new players will not ask when they should, for (amongst other reasons) fear of looking silly.

That view has merit Tank. But we must not disadavntage the original pusher, either. It's not a given that he's a stroke-puller, not at all.

[AndrewT]

It is the players responsibilty to see how much goes into the pot, but more often than not (especially low value chips, lots of) they are chucked in the middle willy nilly, how can anyone count these in a mound? I never understand why people count out chips in nice little stacks, then push them forward, knocking them everywhere? Is it in a players manual to do this

I've wondered this as well, along with its corollary - me pushing forward my chips, in nice neat stacks of 20, winning the pot, then having the dealer sweep the chips back to me in a dishevelled heap.

[dik9]

It is the players responsibilty to see how much goes into the pot, but more often than not (especially low value chips, lots of) they are chucked in the middle willy nilly, how can anyone count these in a mound? I never understand why people count out chips in nice little stacks, then push them forward, knocking them everywhere? Is it in a players manual to do this

I've wondered this as well, along with its corollary - me pushing forward my chips, in nice neat stacks of 20, winning the pot, then having the dealer sweep the chips back to me in a dishevelled heap.

should never happen at the Broadway, they weren't trained like that