A question for you......

[mikkyT]

If you are a player - its simple..............

"IF YOU ARE NOT SURE - ASK"

Then the dealer can help and no-one can have any objections

Which is an ok philosophy if you don't consider that most new players will not ask when they should, for (amongst other reasons) fear of looking silly.

That view has merit Tank. But we must not disadavntage the original pusher, either. It's not a given that he's a stroke-puller, not at all.

Anyone who puts a dirty stack, low denominations first, or mixed in with big ones, and then moans about the dealer giving the player a verbal count, is quite obviously stroke pulling. The bitter whining afterwards is only because he got caught trying to take candy from a baby.

[AndrewT]

If you are a player - its simple..............

"IF YOU ARE NOT SURE - ASK"

Then the dealer can help and no-one can have any objections

Which is an ok philosophy if you don't consider that most new players will not ask when they should, for (amongst other reasons) fear of looking silly.

That view has merit Tank. But we must not disadavntage the original pusher, either. It's not a given that he's a stroke-puller, not at all.

You wouldn't be putting the original pusher at a 'disadvantage' - you would merely be removing a potential advantage that he may, or may not, have accrued through a stroke. Why not make things unequivocal and remove the chance for the advantage to accrue?

[tikay]

My 2 cents

If the money has crossed the line, that is now the dealers responsiblity. He/she should know how much is there, remember the "how much is in the pot debate"?

If more than one person is left to call then the dealer should say how much it is to call (in the uk anyway) to keep the flow of the game. The dealer SHOULD NOT COMMENT AT ALL especially using words like "only...". Head to head, then the dealer should remain in silence until asked, but still know how much is there upon request.

It is the experienced player that usually uses this trick head to head, with small denomination chips making themselves look strong, and more often than not it is the experienced player that will object. The easiest way to make this play "low chips, that look like a large amount" is to just declare "all-in" without moving your chips. It is usually followed by the opponent by "How much is it" or a fold. If it is a how much, then the chips should pass the line so the dealer can count it.

IMO it is a small stroke pull, for the objectors. As such it should be announced.

It is the players responsibilty to see how much goes into the pot, but more often than not (especially low value chips, lots of) they are chucked in the middle willy nilly, how can anyone count these in a mound? I never understand why people count out chips in nice little stacks, then push them forward, knocking them everywhere? Is it in a players manual to do this

Thanks Rich.

So, lets get to the nub of the question.

Is there a rule, anywhere, that says one or the other is right or wrong? Or are we just doing "custom & practice"? Given the amount of money sloshing around in poker, there should be a rule for thus, surely?

As many of you know, my mind is a weird if not wonderful thing, and when I see what appears to be an anomoly, I just have to poke about behind things to understand "why?".

[thetank]

If you are a player - its simple..............

"IF YOU ARE NOT SURE - ASK"

Then the dealer can help and no-one can have any objections

Which is an ok philosophy if you don't consider that most new players will not ask when they should, for (amongst other reasons) fear of looking silly.

That view has merit Tank. But we must not disadavntage the original pusher, either. It's not a given that he's a stroke-puller, not at all.

I don't see announcing the size of a bet as being a disadvantage to the original pusher.

All it does is negate the advantage of being able to visually count chips (or having the confidence to ask every single pot)

[bolt pp]

Guaranteed right, what difference does it make?

[AndrewT]

It is the players responsibilty to see how much goes into the pot, but more often than not (especially low value chips, lots of) they are chucked in the middle willy nilly, how can anyone count these in a mound? I never understand why people count out chips in nice little stacks, then push them forward, knocking them everywhere? Is it in a players manual to do this

I've wondered this as well, along with its corollary - me pushing forward my chips, in nice neat stacks of 20, winning the pot, then having the dealer sweep the chips back to me in a dishevelled heap.

should never happen at the Broadway, they weren't trained like that

I was actually referring to when I was playing out in Vegas - it was something I noticed. I'm sure the Broadway dealers would never dream of messing with my stacks.

[tikay]

If you are a player - its simple..............

"IF YOU ARE NOT SURE - ASK"

Then the dealer can help and no-one can have any objections

Which is an ok philosophy if you don't consider that most new players will not ask when they should, for (amongst other reasons) fear of looking silly.

That view has merit Tank. But we must not disadavntage the original pusher, either. It's not a given that he's a stroke-puller, not at all.

You wouldn't be putting the original pusher at a 'disadvantage' - you would merely be removing a potential advantage that he may, or may not, have accrued through a stroke. Why not make things unequivocal and remove the chance for the advantage to accrue?

Thanks Andrew. I have no quibble at all with making it unequivocal. I'm trying to find out what the Rule is, & why. This thread suggests few of us know! Hence the question.

Weirdly, if we compare it to Online Poker, we ALL know the rule there, because the amount is shown.

[tikay]

It is the players responsibilty to see how much goes into the pot, but more often than not (especially low value chips, lots of) they are chucked in the middle willy nilly, how can anyone count these in a mound? I never understand why people count out chips in nice little stacks, then push them forward, knocking them everywhere? Is it in a players manual to do this

I've wondered this as well, along with its corollary - me pushing forward my chips, in nice neat stacks of 20, winning the pot, then having the dealer sweep the chips back to me in a dishevelled heap.

should never happen at the Broadway, they weren't trained like that

I was actually referring to when I was playing out in Vegas - it was something I noticed. I'm sure the Broadway dealers would never dream of messing with my stacks.

And my question was hypothetical!

[thetank]

Guaranteed right, what difference does it make?

Don't mind us bolt, we're discussing poker for a change. 

It does make a reasonable difference, and as Tikay alludes to, a hard and fast rule either way would be great.

I think what is right for a big fezzie event final table, is not necessary the same thing required of a £5 rebuy down the local.

In the latter, I see keeping the game moving along at a brisk pace takes precedent to the complete elimination of any possiblilty a dealer may be prompting a player. As such, this is one rule I don't mind not being the same across the board.

[dik9]

In my view, this has come about from custom (in this country) and I don't think it is a bad custom.

In USA they are told not to count, don't know if there is a rule about it.

There should be a rule yay or nay, but a rule non the less. In fact a book should be published, with every small point, or even APAT could do something, but can I urge you that TD's should be involved rather than players only, a mix would be good or a debate, to clear the whole god damn mess up. It's not that hard for rules like ths and others to be written down as standard practise.

In answer to your question though TK a rule does not exist at the moment. As far as i am aware.

[mikkyT]

Not a rule, just general practise.

[mjrevie]

It is the players responsibilty to see how much goes into the pot, but more often than not (especially low value chips, lots of) they are chucked in the middle willy nilly, how can anyone count these in a mound? I never understand why people count out chips in nice little stacks, then push them forward, knocking them everywhere? Is it in a players manual to do this

I've wondered this as well, along with its corollary - me pushing forward my chips, in nice neat stacks of 20, winning the pot, then having the dealer sweep the chips back to me in a dishevelled heap.

I know your point, but i know a lot of players who enjoy the whole stacking up their chips after they've won a huge pot and building them into nice piles.

[Bongo]

Why should there be a distinction because someone has gone all in? They have still made a bet or a raise and surely it should just be treated like a normal bet/raise?

[AndrewT]

Thanks Andrew. I have no quibble at all with making it unequivocal. I'm trying to find out what the Rule is, & why. This thread suggests few of us know! Hence the question.

Weirdly, if we compare it to Online Poker, we ALL know the rule there, because the amount is shown.

As far as I can see, there is no 'rule' as such, it is, as you say, custom and practice.

But it's a custom that the old-school players certainly see as giving them an advantage over the kids (who may not know/feel comfortable in asking for a count), so they want it to remain. It could be argued that, in and of itself, would be reason enough to get rid of it.

As it happens, there are other, better reasons (speeding up the game, kiboshing the stroke-pullers etc).

[bolt pp]

Guaranteed right, what difference does it make?

Don't mind us bolt, we're discussing poker for a change. 

What you saying; i read the first post and without reading the rest of the thread made an impetuously uninformed post?