Why is the APAT payout structure so top heavy ?

[Sheriff Fatman]

My main concern with the structure (which I wasn't aware of prior to reading the thread at the weekend, and which I couldn't find under the 'prizes' section of the APAT site - a minor point as I didn't get through the ballot) is that it is contradictory to the general sentiment for flatter payout structures at UK live events.  As APAT is also intended to be a representative body for the amateur player, I think this sends out the wrong signal to the UK casinos - its almost an encouragement to them to keep the top heavy payout structures which we generally see, and I don't want this to be seen by them as 'what the ordinary player wants.'

I'm also intrigued by the fact that this structure didn't prompt talk of a deal at the APAT event, as I'm fairly sure it would have encouraged one in a Festival event.  Perhaps the APAT players, being largely a group of online players, are used to playing out events without dealing or maybe its the fact that the amounts involved aren't on the same scale as a Festival event, so a deal is worth maybe a few hundred quid rather than several thousand.

I also find it unusual that the live and online APAT events have such different payout structures, as a great deal of effort has gone into pointing out that they count equally with regard to the overall ranking points league.  Admittedly there's no reason why the two have to be consistent, but I'd naturally assumed that they would be.

Overall, I think APAT is doing a lot right, and I'm very supportive of it.  I don't expect to agree 100% with everything they do and having a different payout structure to one I think is better is not going to stop me playing (or trying to) in their events.  After all, the payout issue only really becomes relevant as you get close to winning one of them and, provided that the players know up front what the situation is (and Tikay and Tighty have both said that they did in this case) then its upto the player to adjust to them in how they play the event.

Sheriff

[CelticGeezeer]

can i suggest though instead of just making posts being critical please offer solutions i m sure that the APAt team will listen

1st           30%     + EPT SEAT
2nd           20%    
3rd       14%    
4th         10%    
5th         8%    
6th         6%    
7th         5%    
8th         4%    
9th         3%

Not that hard is it?

It made me laugh 

[Karabiner]

My main concern with the structure (which I wasn't aware of prior to reading the thread at the weekend, and which I couldn't find under the 'prizes' section of the APAT site - a minor point as I didn't get through the ballot) is that it is contradictory to the general sentiment for flatter payout structures at UK live events.  As APAT is also intended to be a representative body for the amateur player, I think this sends out the wrong signal to the UK casinos - its almost an encouragement to them to keep the top heavy payout structures which we generally see, and I don't want this to be seen by them as 'what the ordinary player wants.'

I'm also intrigued by the fact that this structure didn't prompt talk of a deal at the APAT event, as I'm fairly sure it would have encouraged one in a Festival event.  Perhaps the APAT players, being largely a group of online players, are used to playing out events without dealing or maybe its the fact that the amounts involved aren't on the same scale as a Festival event, so a deal is worth maybe a few hundred quid rather than several thousand.

I also find it unusual that the live and online APAT events have such different payout structures, as a great deal of effort has gone into pointing out that they count equally with regard to the overall ranking points league.  Admittedly there's no reason why the two have to be consistent, but I'd naturally assumed that they would be.

Overall, I think APAT is doing a lot right, and I'm very supportive of it.  I don't expect to agree 100% with everything they do and having a different payout structure to one I think is better is not going to stop me playing (or trying to) in their events.  After all, the payout issue only really becomes relevant as you get close to winning one of them and, provided that the players know up front what the situation is (and Tikay and Tighty have both said that they did in this case) then its upto the player to adjust to them in how they play the event.

Sheriff

  

I have a feeling that there was always an enormous chip-leader during the final until it became three handed.

This may well have precluded any suggestions of a deal.

However had there been about equal chips four or five handed I for one would certainly tried to deal had I been in the position. £10K for first prize and £300 for fourth and fifth, it's a no-brainer to make a deal imo.

[TightEnd]

As I said in my report of the event, which will be on the main page, there was a completely different atmosphere at this event from any Festival event I have been to. I characterised a festival event as sometimes having an air of "jaded cynicism" with nipping and bitching and occasionally a sense of quiet desperation. At the weekend there was a real sense of excitement and it was clear that people's motivations were in many cases different.

For example I did a little "rookie teach in" on etiquette and procedures an hour before the comp in which I established that around 20 of the players had never played live before. To my mind if APAT can be increasing the size of the live player base in the UK then it's doing something right, especially if that first experience is fun, they are looked after and they want to return for more which many said they did.

There's an interview with the winner going up on blonde soon too...the guy had never been to a casino before!

This event was about having a great time first and foremost and I too never heard a grumble about the payout, or any talk of wanting to deal. Yet there were also experienced amateur players there too...Suited Jock for example is an excellent experienced player, Gavin Butler who won the event in which Micky Wernick won the rankings at Luton last year played. These type of players were perfectly happy with the payout. At least they never told us they weren't!

I dare say in time we might make a tweak here and there but to understand the top heavy payout, not necessarily to agree with it, you have to view this series in a different light...gold/silver/bronze medals for the top three and playing to win, not grip onto 6th waiting for another to bust out...old amateur style if you like .

Talking to Ironside, when he would let me talk not listen, I know the payout affected his strategy on the final table as he went for it early to put himself in a position to win. I think the finalists all adapted well to what the payout meant for the way they should play it    
 

It did get to roughly equal chips four handed with average stack 10x bb and still no one talked deal or even mentioned it tongue in cheek!

[matt674]

Having followed the thread most of the way thru it was close all the way - when they got 4 handed they all had virtually equal chips (approx 350-400k) with blinds at 15k/30k.

ScottM and the eventual winner clashed in a big pot with AK o/s vs JJ and missed which would have given him a big chip lead with only 3 left but it wasn't to be.

[dik9]

My main concern with the structure (which I wasn't aware of prior to reading the thread at the weekend, and which I couldn't find under the 'prizes' section of the APAT site - a minor point as I didn't get through the ballot) is that it is contradictory to the general sentiment for flatter payout structures at UK live events.  As APAT is also intended to be a representative body for the amateur player, I think this sends out the wrong signal to the UK casinos - its almost an encouragement to them to keep the top heavy payout structures which we generally see, and I don't want this to be seen by them as 'what the ordinary player wants.'

This is exactly my point with the "tour", I don't wish to take anything away from APA as it looked a good time was had by all, and a fantastic comp had by all.
But the APAt site does not say anywhere the payout structure percentages, so how could people discuss?
Now, any lowish freezeout should follow APAt's example and have a structure like this

50% 1st
20% 2nd
10% 3rd
3.3% 4th-9th

For 120 runners? If I had suggested that on the Poll 8 months ago I would have got severely chastised.
I am not saying it is wrong, as it has it's merits for a small buy in freezeout, but when I tested something similar, I nearly had a riot on my hands. Not having an increase between 4th and 9th alters the game completely, as the lower chip stacks have to go for gold on any rags to have a chance of making the increase. Why do i always sound so negative grrrrr it's not meant to be negative, just concerned.

[matt674]

My main concern with the structure (which I wasn't aware of prior to reading the thread at the weekend, and which I couldn't find under the 'prizes' section of the APAT site - a minor point as I didn't get through the ballot) is that it is contradictory to the general sentiment for flatter payout structures at UK live events.  As APAT is also intended to be a representative body for the amateur player, I think this sends out the wrong signal to the UK casinos - its almost an encouragement to them to keep the top heavy payout structures which we generally see, and I don't want this to be seen by them as 'what the ordinary player wants.'

This is exactly my point with the "tour", I don't wish to take anything away from APA as it looked a good time was had by all, and a fantastic comp had by all.
But the APAt site does not say anywhere the payout structure percentages, so how could people discuss?
Now, any lowish freezeout should follow APAt's example and have a structure like this

50% 1st
20% 2nd
10% 3rd
3.3% 4th-9th

For 120 runners? If I had suggested that on the Poll 8 months ago I would have got severely chastised.
I am not saying it is wrong, as it has it's merits for a small buy in freezeout, but when I tested something similar, I nearly had a riot on my hands. Not having an increase between 4th and 9th alters the game completely, as the lower chip stacks have to go for gold on any rags to have a chance of making the increase. Why do i always sound so negative grrrrr it's not meant to be negative, just concerned.

the site does mention payout structure, and apparently has done for a while. When i first heard of the payout structure about a week before the event i thought someone was pulling my leg so i went to the site and the details are there. So the info has been there for all to see well in advance.

[TightEnd]

It was on the website and sent in a communication by email to all players the week before the event concerning the comp, timings, structure, payout etc

[dik9]

http://apat.com/prizes.html

Where? If it does I apologize completely, but it must be in an obscure place?

[dik9]

It was on the website and sent in a communication by email to all players the week before the event concerning the comp, timings, structure, payout etc

So you only get the communication if you have entered? Is that not too late?

[TightEnd]

APAT members get frequent communications


The particular one I am referring to was specifcally in advance of the first Event. Customer service 

[dik9]

I best pay my £10 and join then to see how I am going to be affected??

[ifm]

As I said in my report of the event, which will be on the main page, there was a completely different atmosphere at this event from any Festival event I have been to. I characterised a festival event as sometimes having an air of "jaded cynicism" with nipping and bitching and occasionally a sense of quiet desperation. At the weekend there was a real sense of excitement and it was clear that people's motivations were in many cases different.

For example I did a little "rookie teach in" on etiquette and procedures an hour before the comp in which I established that around 20 of the players had never played live before. To my mind if APAT can be increasing the size of the live player base in the UK then it's doing something right, especially if that first experience is fun, they are looked after and they want to return for more which many said they did.

There's an interview with the winner going up on blonde soon too...the guy had never been to a casino before!

This event was about having a great time first and foremost and I too never heard a grumble about the payout, or any talk of wanting to deal. Yet there were also experienced amateur players there too...Suited Jock for example is an excellent experienced player, Gavin Butler who won the event in which Micky Wernick won the rankings at Luton last year played. These type of players were perfectly happy with the payout. At least they never told us they weren't!

I dare say in time we might make a tweak here and there but to understand the top heavy payout, not necessarily to agree with it, you have to view this series in a different light...gold/silver/bronze medals for the top three and playing to win, not grip onto 6th waiting for another to bust out...old amateur style if you like .

Talking to Ironside, when he would let me talk not listen, I know the payout affected his strategy on the final table as he went for it early to put himself in a position to win. I think the finalists all adapted well to what the payout meant for the way they should play it    
 

It did get to roughly equal chips four handed with average stack 10x bb and still no one talked deal or even mentioned it tongue in cheek!

The trouble with bringing stuff up is that it is seen as sniping.............

It looks as if you are happy with the payout structure Richard, i hope you poll the members before the next one.

[ifm]

APAT members get frequent communications


The particular one I am referring to was specifcally in advance of the first Event. Customer service 

It appears then that you only got this if you were actually in the event, surely all should get this sort of info?

[TightEnd]

http://www.apat.com/termsandconditions.html

An illustrative payout is on the link above on the apat website

Actually dik9 has a point, It should be more prominently displayed...I'll ask the powers that be to make sure it is.

but it was on the website though!!


As to communications, regular communication emails to all and there was an "arrangements for the weekend" letter to all competitiors last week. I don't see that as anything other than good manners