Seinfeld actor racist outburst

[tantrum]

Well tbh I don't like all those black/gay/women/old/young categorisations, i acknowledge that some feel a need to set up 'minority' clubs in order to protect themselves from the 'majority'.

 I am neither avoiding or pretending that someone looks different from me, but I am brought up in a way that the skin colour is the least important aspect of the other person's attributes.  I can see the differences between me and the other, but it is my choice what qualities and attributes are important in classifying another person, and their skin colour is not on top of my list.

Your very first question

Would you have a moral dilemma if he asked you what they looked like?

is suggesting that for you, in order to describe a person of different ethinic origin you feel you have to emphasise this part of their being, what i am saying is that for me and in my world this is not as important unless the discourse demands to mention those diferences.

OK, I get you now. We both agree it was a racist rant, and you say that, therefore, Kramer is a racist. I would argue that this one incident doesn't necessarily mean that Kramer has a deep-seated hatred of black people.

As for the language thing, if you were describing a friend to someone else, you're trying to paint a picture in the other person's mind of what the your friend looks like, so it's only sensible to start with the defining characteristics that would differentiate them from someone else. In a predominantly white community, a white person's 'default mystery person' would almost certainly be a white individual, so describing the person's skin colour helps to form the correct picture.

1st, i am sorry but if i was angry with my black friend it would never come across my mind to racially abuse him or her. It is like if i was pissed with my friend who is Jewish and tell him some anti-semitic abuse. 

Because i don't live in a predominant white community, and my friends come from all over the world, i got used to their different ethnic origins therefore i don''t have a need to describe them by their skin colour. I am trying to say that for some the skin colour is the first and foremost different characteristic of another human being and for me is not. 


Why do you think that the skin colour is the most defining difference? I might focus first on their height? I might say s/he is shorter then you Andrew, s/he has longer hair then you, s/he is better/worse looking then you/ smarter/thicker whatever.  The colour of skin might come at the end of the difference list, as in my world this difference is indeed the least important. 

 

Why it is so important to state another person colour in order to describe them?  I would like to know why? No one answered me this question in a satisfying way.

[JungleCat03]

Because often colour is one of the most visually arresting features of someone and using it in a visual description is simply pragmatic.

If I were to describe a room of people I didn't know, i wouldn't have any compunction referring to the tall black guy or the short ginger guy. Why should I?

Describing someone's colour is just that.... a description. It is when colour is blithely associated with generic traits, often negatively, that is starts to become offensive.

[thetank]

Sorry, but If I'm meeting Lenny Henry and Mason Malmouth down the pub in Inverness. If I'm running a half hour late, and I want to call one of them so they're not sitting on their own, but I only have enough credit for one 20 second call. If I know that the two don't know each other, or even what they look like.

For them to find each other while they wait for me, the following choices are among my options for the brief phone conversation.....

a) Phone Lenny, apologise quickly, say that he is to look out for a funny looking chap, of medium build, with dark hair, mid 40s

b) Phone Mason, apologise quickly and tell him to look out for a very tall, well built chap with short dark hair and blue eyes, 40ish.

c) Phone Mason, apologize quickly, and tell him to look out for a great big f***-off black man. Then we talk about the weather till I get cut off.


If I opt for option a or b, I think the two will rip the almighty piss out of me when I do eventually arrive.

If I pick option c, am I racist, yes/no?

[thetank]

I believe, to a ceratian extent, it's the other way round.

Kids will say what they see. If they come home from school and say "Mommy, Daddy, there's a new kid in school today, his skin is black." a liberal parent's stock response may be to correct that child.

"You can't call them black, you need to think of other ways to describe them"

Now the kid may describe his other little friends thus, Jane is very tall, Billy has ginger hair, Paula has very long hair. These are the most striking characteristics of the children, the ones the child immediately recognizes. He chooses to add to his list of friends, and say William has black skin.

If the parent stops the child doing this, straight away, they are teaching their child to treat William differently.
He is allowed to say Jane is tall, coz she's the biggest kid in class, but not that William has black skin.

The kid has to look past the colour of William's skin, but he was probably going to do that anyway, just as he has seen past the colour of Billy's hair. He has just been taught by his wannabe liberal parents to treat black kids differently, so now he probably will.

[thetank]

If you fail to see the issue that the only way you see fit to describe a person of differnt colour to yours is mainly by their skin colour, then you have a problem....

Nobody has said that here though. 

[byronkincaid]

About 10 years ago I had aspirations of being some kind of journalist (before i had to accept that I'm a crap writer) and there was a bit of trouble in town after a Euro 96 match. So I wrote it up in the best tabloid newspaper style as I could including made up quotes from my mates and sent it in to the local rag. They copied it almost word for word including made up quotes and stuck it on their front page and as a reward i got to do a weeks work experience.

It turns out that being a reporter on the local guardian is not the glam job that i thought it was gonna be, there were actually only two guys there who had to write the whole of my local paper the Sutton Guardian AND the Croydon Guardian as well. Anyway one of them was black, one white and I got the super exciting job of getting a pile of press releases and pretty much typing them word for word into the computer so that they would appear in the next weeks paper.

After a few days of doing this I'm getting into the groove and my copying these things almost word for word but just changing a little bit skills are coming on strong. I get something in through from the police about some old granny who's been mugged by a black guy. No other info about what he looked like or how old or what he was wearing, just that he was black. Now the stupid thing was that I actually thought about it for like a micro second, "should I put in that it was a black man? is that racist? no cos it might help someone identify him" Durrrrrrrrr. Yes I'm a complete dick head, I have just pinned the mugging down to one of Xmillion black men in the country. Well done me.

So I put it into the computer and it's literally just a couple of lines long. At some point it hits Black guy's computer and BOOM he explodes like a volcano. He stands up and starts shouting about how I'm a racist this and a racist that and the whole of the room (which is pretty big cos there are dozens of different local Guardians done in the same place) is staring at me and I'm not white any more I'm like Mr Tomato Head and I can't think of anything to say so I just STFU and hope he stops shouting soon. Things are a bit frosty for the rest of the week, he didn't say anything to me unless it was necessary from a work point of view. Meh whatever.

Ever since then of course hundreds if not thousands of news articles that I've read which say black man does XYZ have stood out to me in a wow they still do that i wonder if that guy is still shouting at people kinda way. I don't think I've ever referred to anyone as black or asian or whatever since then (until this post in fact) so I guess it was a good thing for me to learn at the time. There was like err a dramatic moment man on here a few months ago about referring to people as gay. I think the general opinion was that if it was offensive to some people then it shouldn't be posted on Blonde. This is exactly the same imo. It is offensive to some people as I found out, so it's probably best not to do it right?

[RED-DOG]

About 10 years ago I had aspirations of being some kind of journalist (before i had to accept that I'm a crap writer) and there was a bit of trouble in town after a Euro 96 match. So I wrote it up in the best tabloid newspaper style as I could including made up quotes from my mates and sent it in to the local rag. They copied it almost word for word including made up quotes and stuck it on their front page and as a reward i got to do a weeks work experience.

It turns out that being a reporter on the local guardian is not the glam job that i thought it was gonna be, there were actually only two guys there who had to write the whole of my local paper the Sutton Guardian AND the Croydon Guardian as well. Anyway one of them was black, one white and I got the super exciting job of getting a pile of press releases and pretty much typing them word for word into the computer so that they would appear in the next weeks paper.

After a few days of doing this I'm getting into the groove and my copying these things almost word for word but just changing a little bit skills are coming on strong. I get something in through from the police about some old granny who's been mugged by a black guy. No other info about what he looked like or how old or what he was wearing, just that he was black. Now the stupid thing was that I actually thought about it for like a micro second, "should I put in that it was a black man? is that racist? no cos it might help someone identify him" Durrrrrrrrr. Yes I'm a complete dick head, I have just pinned the mugging down to one of Xmillion black men in the country. Well done me.

So I put it into the computer and it's literally just a couple of lines long. At some point it hits Black guy's computer and BOOM he explodes like a volcano. He stands up and starts shouting about how I'm a racist this and a racist that and the whole of the room (which is pretty big cos there are dozens of different local Guardians done in the same place) is staring at me and I'm not white any more I'm like Mr Tomato Head and I can't think of anything to say so I just STFU and hope he stops shouting soon. Things are a bit frosty for the rest of the week, he didn't say anything to me unless it was necessary from a work point of view. Meh whatever.

Ever since then of course hundreds if not thousands of news articles that I've read which say black man does XYZ have stood out to me in a wow they still do that i wonder if that guy is still shouting at people kinda way. I don't think I've ever referred to anyone as black or asian or whatever since then (until this post in fact) so I guess it was a good thing for me to learn at the time. There was like err a dramatic moment man on here a few months ago about referring to people as gay. I think the general opinion was that if it was offensive to some people then it shouldn't be posted on Blonde. This is exactly the same imo. It is offensive to some people as I found out, so it's probably best not to do it right?

What a great post.

[tantrum]

Byronkincaid- nice post

Describing someone's colour is just that.... a description. It is when colour is blithely associated with generic traits, often negatively, that is starts to become offensive.

As with associations, unfortunately anyone who has came across Semiotics (study of signs and symbols) will know that words are not innocent and they always carry set of meanings.

I will quote wikipedia,
Semioticians classify signs and sign systems in relation to the way they are transmitted (see modality). This process of carrying meaning depends on the use of codes that may be the individual sounds or letters that humans use to form words, the body movements they make to show attitude or emotion, or even something as general as the clothes they wear. To coin a word to refer to a thing (see lexical words), the community must agree on a simple meaning (a denotative meaning) within their language. But that word can transmit that meaning only within the language's grammatical structures and codes (see syntax and semantics). Codes also represent the values of the culture, and are able to add new shades of connotation to every aspect of life.

The important concept here is CONNOTATION.  
This word has distinct meanings in logic, philosophy, and common usage.

In semiotics, connotation arises when the denotative relationship between a signifier and its signified is inadequate to serve the needs of the community. A second level of meanings is termed connotative. These meanings are not objective representations of the thing, but new usages produced by the language group.

So on a very simple level will take a word ROSE.
This word can be divided into two elements:

signifier - what we see/feel/touch - a flower with a red blossom, has horns, distinctive smell
signified- it will represent mental idea, or a mental construct of the thing rather then a thing itself,

In Language, the latter will be determined by culture and the signified will vary from culture to culture.
In our culture red roses are connoted usually with love. romance and so on.

This is very simplistic for further study I recommed reading Roland Barthes among others.

Another word - beauty- when we call something beautiful we do not commenting on the object/person's appearance what we have seen but we are judging its worth according to to a set of culturally determined values.  


The western language historically- within the discourse heavily relies on dichotomies and polarisations.  We divide our world into bad-good, female-male and so on.

Think for a second and answer a question what is the difference between female - male.  On a face value female differs from male physically by having different reproductive organs, but we know that those differences don't end there.
the signified of those two terms bear huge cultural connotations, and those differ from patriarchal to matriarchal societies.

When there is a discussion of racism in the context of white on black, there will be always someone who will try to justify that 'the others' do the same.  But is it right.

The issue is highly complex and one cannot be simplified it by some one of example i.e 'i go the party and what i can't call my friend black type of thing.'

Language is a complex idea, and as long as we are aware that whatever we say it is never without cultural connotations, one should be fine.  But then again one can never escape the cultural centre (the language you were borne in) totally, the only thing one can do is to become aware of the way we perceive the world.

We are what we think and do.  If the skin colour is important for you as defining factor in pointing out a difference between people, I want again the answer why and the excuse because this how i was brought up won't satisfy me.



I want to know why the colour is the first and foremost characteristic that you feel you need to describe 'the other'?
Why this and not the other difference is so important?
Is it because you live in a white community, therefore this is the first thing you see in the person?  Would be different if you were brought up in a multicultural community, where the colour is less important to define differences between people?

The kid has to look past the colour of William's skin, but he was probably going to do that anyway, just as he has seen past the colour of Billy's hair. He has just been taught by his wannabe liberal parents to treat black kids differently, so now he probably will.

Not if he was brought up by racist parents., then the skin colour will be the most important factor in describing William. I am grateful for my wannabe liberal parents, i would hate to be born in a racist and prejudiced family.


Why have you used a word 'wannabe' Tank? do I sense derogatory connotation?


as to Lenny Henry- sry but he is a bit famous, so saying Lenny Henry will be there would not pose a problem. You give a name of the famous comedian but the only thing to describe him is by his skin colour. I rest my case here.

[Rod Paradise]

I want to know why the colour is the first and foremost characteristic that you feel you need to describe 'the other'?
Why this and not the other difference is so important?
Is it because you live in a white community, therefore this is the first thing you see in the person?  Would be different if you were brought up in a multicultural community, where the colour is less important to define differences between people?

I was brought up in a multiethnic community, where there were many different colours of people. One of the easiest ways to describe someone was skin colour, that and hair type. It still is. My Aunt Laverne would piss herself laughing if I was to try and describe someone without mention of skin colour.

I wonder what deliberately not using skin colour says about someone's prejuduces?

[AndrewT]

Tantrum, imagine you live in a country where every adult male was exactly six feet tall. One day your friend flies in from abroad. He's 4'9" tall. I've agreed to go and pick him up from the airport for you as you're stuck at work.

How do you describe him to me so I know who to take home in my car?

EDIT: Saying 'he's the stumpy little midget' would be out of order. Saying 'he's short' would not, even though, in a society of six feet tall people, someone who is short may face prejudice, and the term may have negative connotations among certain people.

[Woodsey]

Racism is alot more prevelant than people think, particularly if youv've lived in a city most of your life I think your probably less likely to encounter it, particularly if your white. I live in a city now and have since going to Uni 15 years ago and have since then lived in a multicultural setting. So living with other cultures and races have always been pretty normal to me.

However, my roots are from a small village/rural area and I can tell you now that racism is alive and kicking in many of these areas. I still listen aghast to some of the nonsense that comes out of the mouths of the people who live in these areas many of whom are my own family. Any outsiders are treated with suspicion but if you are black/asian the tongues really start wagging, with the usual hates names and they should go back where they came from type talk.

On another note an English (white) friend of mine recently left Scotland (small village up towards Aberdeen)because the locals basically hated them for being English. It even extended to their children at primary school being given a hard time by the teacher and constantly abusing them verbally and encourging the other kids at the school to do the same, and yes it was primary school!

In these sorts of places if you are different it is difficult, but if you are of another race it makes it even harder.

[tantrum]

You are taking things out of context and i can't be bothered to reply anymore, as I am beginning to feel like a Don Quixote de la Mancha.

AndrewT and few others, this is the whole point of taking things out of context, twisitng it and then spewing out by giving some simple examples that will try do justify certain behaviours.

 
 Rod, so your Aunt says to you, this whitey boy rob came for tea yesterday?  or the colour description only applies to the non-white people?



I am not saying that the skin colour is not a factor of difference, but I am asking why the first thing that comes to your mind in describing person of different ethic origin you have to point their skin colour before anything else, except when the person is white.

Tantrum, imagine you live in a country where every adult male was exactly six feet tall.

Britain is not 100% white anymore AndrewT (and probably never was) your analogy is pretty shallow.  Try better to justify yourself. 

[Rod Paradise]

 
 Rod, so your Aunt says to you, this whitey boy rob came for tea yesterday?  or the colour description only applies to the non-white people?

Ridiculously worded, and no she wouldn't call me 'whitey', except if taking the piss out of me & to my face. She would however say I was white, fat, with a shaved head and a goatee if asked to describe me to someone who hadn't met me. I'd describe her as light-brown skinned, short round woman, or her husband as a Mr Miyagi look-alike.

Why is it the most strident complainers about racism seem to prejudge everyone else's thinking?

[bolt pp]

What do you guy's think of the comedian Patrice o' Neal's comments on the incident featured here in an interview he gave on Fox News.......


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7Bj4fywCBo

I think he makes some very intersting and honest observations.

I wont go into what i think about the whole episode because it would just take to long to write a fitting post that was in keeping with the progression of this thread but i found this interview very insighful.

[Dingdell]

When I was in junior school (the 60's) it was less common to see as many different coloured skins around. My best friend Sarah was black - adopted into a white family so she should have been ever more obvious (if you see what I mean).

As a child I didn't see her colour at all and when I was asked to point her out once I said she was the girl in the green jumper. Bizarrely the only time we realised she was black was when we had to bring photos into school of us as babies in so we could guess who was who, and it's not until we saw a photo of a black baby we realised she was different.

I think a lot of the race stuff that goes on is fuelled by political correctness, making people more aware. Don't get me wrong - I am against any ism - racism and everything else - but the more we make an issue of things the worse it seems to get. Obviously outbursts such as that seinfeld guy and atrocious and should not be allowed and as much fuss should be made imho but the more politically correct we seem to be the worse the grass roots problems seem to come. Its as if race is the first thing on everyones mind.