How many outs should I have givn myself ?

[Muahahahaha]

$5 + $0.50 Sit & Go (9376291), Table 1 - 20/40 - No Limit Hold'em
Seat 1: Muahahahaha(1,995)
Seat 3: Roseate (2,290)
Seat 4: sidon (1,160)
Seat 5: vjohnson19 (1,190)
Seat 6: stillapfg (2,835)
Seat 7: badbadmike (1,060)
Seat 8: rn4heads (1,560)
Seat 9: Capn Aubrey (1,410)
Roseate posts the small blind of 20
sidon posts the big blind of 40
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Muahahahaha
vjohnson19 folds
stillapfg calls 40
badbadmike folds
rn4heads calls 40
Capn Aubrey folds
Muahhahaha calls 40
Roseate folds
sidon checks
*** FLOP *** 
sidon checks
stillapfg checks
rn4heads bets 120
Muahahahaha calls 120
sidon folds
stillapfg raises to 640
rn4heads has 15 seconds left to act
rn4heads folds
Muahahaha calls 520
*** TURN *** 
stillapfg bets 2,155, and is all in
Muahahaha calls 1,315, and is all in
stillapfg shows [ ]
Muahahaha shows [ ]
Uncalled bet of 840 returned to stillapfg
*** RIVER *** [ ] []
stillapfg shows a flush, Queen high
Muahahahaha shows three of a kind, Tens
stillapfg wins the pot (4,210) with a flush, Queen high

I've had a terrible time this morning.  1st two games I've had KK badly outdrawn, when I've managed to get all my chips in, well in front.  These things happen, but there're still blmmin' annoying.  So this game, I'm trying to concentrate on making decent odds decisions, just to make sure I'm not tilting ( too badly ).

The relevant points ;

1)  I'm on the button, with 2 limpers before me, so I think , if I can see a cheap flop, lovely.  Pot = 180

2)  I get middle pair & an up & down.  I'm happy calling the 120.  Now the check raise to 640. I've got to put 520 into 1060.  So I'm getting over 2/1 odds, and I'll be left over 1300 chips if I have to fold after the turn.
My mistake here was not thinking enough of what his hand could be.  I assumed, without any major reason,  that 2 pair was most likely, because of the preflop check.  I ignored AQ, KQ, & trips.  All very possible in hindsight.

3)   After the turn & I'm put all in, I still don't think about trips sudenly becoming a full house, but I do think he's either got the 2 pair, or is drawing to his straight, and he might have a flush draw now as well.  Because I've got trips already I think I have a decent chance of being in front, but if I'm not , & I need to improve, I tried to work out how many outs to give myself.

I calculated that the T wins, any 8,9,orJ give me the full house.  The Q gives me the straight, as does the 7, but is a lower straight worth counting ?

So I ended up giving myself 1+3+3+3+4 outs.  14 outs + maybe 4 more.  So with 1 card to come if I'm anywhere near 2 /1 odds, I should call. To stick 1300 chips into 2800 is better than 2/1, so I do it.

Now I know the whole premise of this thought process was flawed from the very beginning, & there are so many mistakes, it must be difficult to know where to start, but if there is anyone out there that can suggest a way for me to begin to learn a better procedure, I'll ( eventually ) be very grateful.

Thanks

[Wardonkey]

You don't have this problem if you pass. 10,8 is a horrible hand to play at this stage of an STT regardless of position.

[Muahahahaha]

You don't have this problem if you pass. 10,8 is a horrible hand to play at this stage of an STT regardless of position.

Well yes.  There's always that viewpoint ( The correct one  ).  But after my 2 x KK debacles I am feeling a little tilty, so purely going by odds, for the sake of 40 chips at 3/1 it's ( mathematically ) reasonable , isn't it ?

[kinboshi]

That flop is nasty - even with the 'outs' you might have against some hands, you could already be well behind and drawing pretty much dead against some likely holdings.

It's time to bail out then (if you're in the hand at all).

[SupaMonkey]

I think you should have folded the flop. This isn't the kind of flop you were looking for. You have middle pair and the low end of the straight draw. You're going to be in bad shape against a lot of hands and not miles ahead of anything.

[Wardonkey]

It's not a bad hand to play on the button in an unraised pot in many poker situations, but early in an STT playing drawing hands costs you money.

Unless you flop a monster hand, which will happen very rarely, then the best you can hope for is flop a draw, perhaps with a pair. Even when you you get the odds to draw to your hand your still putting chips into a pot that you probably won't win. If you play your draw aggressively it often means risking your whole stack. Doubling up early is always nice but it does not guarantee a payout and the chips you lose in these situations are worth far more than the chips you win.

[thetank]

 so purely going by odds, for the sake of 40 chips at 3/1 it's ( mathematically ) reasonable , isn't it ?

40 chips at 3/1 turned into your stack somehow.

This will happen more often, cheap=expensive, fold your mince pre-flop at this stage of STTs.

You can't play strongly post flop early on in a STT, as you need to conserve your chips. This is what stops me playing marginal hands (or pretty much any hand) early on.

If I did, I'd be getting into too many situations where my opponents, less concerned with chip preservation and high % poker, will be able to run rings round me. Bollox to that, I want to be the pwner, not the pwned, so I pass.

[thetank]

Forget the odds, forget the number of outs you may have, just stop drawing to anything in STTs.

If you win all the chips on the table, you can't cash em in. The biggest prize you can win is 50% of the prize pool. For this reason, keeping chips is more important than winning chips.

[The_Diamond]

Preflop, limping on the button was the worst of your options. On the flop you should have folded for 120 but to call the raise is just about as fishy as it gets.

    

[tantrum]

ditto

[Muahahahaha]

I'm not trying to defend my play, I know it was terrible.  But I knew, emotionally, I couldn't play my normal game.

I'm forever reading that to improve we have to understand pot odds & how to play them.

What I was trying to do in this game, was take the emotional play out & rely on numbers. Obviously I got it wrong ( big time ), so the question is how should we play the odds, and how does a dumbster like me start to learn & understand them.

I realise, logically, that my preflop limp was wrong, but mathematically it looks right.

When I used to play golf, one of the things that stuck, was when Big Jack said that winning wasn't being able to play your 'A' game, it was making your 'B' game efficient enough that you didn't lose because of it.

That's the sort of thing I'm trying to do here.  Does that make sense ?  

[SupaMonkey]

Muahaha,

I think your question is impossible to answer because you limped preflop so you can't make any assumptions about your oppo's hand ranges. If i were to play this hand, i would raise preflop to try and take the pot then. If they call, i would then have some info that i could use to narrow their hand range allowing me to use my position more effectively.

[Wardonkey]

When I used to play golf, one of the things that stuck, was when Big Jack said that winning wasn't being able to play your 'A' game, it was making your 'B' game efficient enough that you didn't lose because of it.

That's the sort of thing I'm trying to do here.  Does that make sense ? 

No, If you know your not playing at your best wouldn't make more sense to simplify your play rather than complicate it? Not playing at all might be an even better option.

[matt674]

If you give yourself 40 outs after every flop you wont go far wrong on a 9 handed table

[thetank]

How best to avoid tilt, we can worry about all that later.

Let's get down to fundamentals, sort out your approach to STTs.

so the question is how should we play the odds, and how does a dumbster like me start to learn & understand them.
 

I want you to ask yourself a question that may help you....

Yesterday, with the AA hand, why did you want to have only one opponent call?

Don't worry, there is no wrong answer here. I ain't going to mock you if you say something that appears silly.