Is this a bad call ?

[Muahahahaha]

Full Tilt Poker Game #1391295207: $10 + $1 Sit & Go (9855727), Table 1 - 25/50 - No Limit Hold'em - 12:02:17 ET - 2006/12/11
Seat 1: Idaho Coach (860)
Seat 3: adent513 (3,155)
Seat 4: Muahahahaha (2,460)
Seat 5: ludo91 (5,030)
Seat 6: Eiksen (660)
Seat 7: ShipItDonkey (1,335)
Idaho Coach posts the small blind of 25
adent513 posts the big blind of 50
The button is in seat #7
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Muahahahaha   
Muahahahaha raises to 150
ludo91 folds
Eiksen raises to 660, and is all in
ShipItDonkey folds
Idaho Coach calls 635
adent513 folds
Muahahahaha has 15 seconds left to act
Muahahahaha calls 510
*** FLOP *** [ ]
Idaho Coach bets 200, and is all in
Muahahahaha calls 200
Idaho Coach shows [ ]
Muahahahaha shows [ ]
Eiksen shows [ ]
*** TURN *** [ ] []
*** RIVER *** [ ] []
Idaho Coach shows two pair, Aces and Fives
Muahahahaha shows two pair, Aces and Fives
Muahahahaha wins the side pot (400) with two pair, Aces and Fives
Eiksen shows two pair, Sevens and Fives
Muahahahaha wins the main pot (2,030) with two pair, Aces and Fives
Eiksen stands up
Idaho Coach stands up
The blinds are now 30/60
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2,430 Main pot 2,030. Side pot 400. | Rake 0
Board: [ ]
Seat 1: Idaho Coach (small blind) showed [ ] and lost with two pair, Aces and Fives
Seat 3: adent513 (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 4: Muahahahaha showed [  ] and won (2,430) with two pair, Aces and Fives
Seat 5: ludo91 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: Eiksen showed [ ] and lost with two pair, Sevens and Fives
Seat 7: ShipItDonkey (button) didn't bet (folded)


I'd been very tight up to this point.  I'd won a couple of early hands, & been conservative with al bets up to now, to the extent that I hadn't made a bet for about 3 days ( well thats what it felt like ), so I assumed I'd be read as something like AK or a decent pair, not just some dweeb playing with any two pretty cards. ( I know that's what I am, but I have delusions of grandeur )

I was happy when shorty went all in, I figured he was at least as likely to have a couple of weaker cards ( maybe down to KQ ) as a decent hand. And for 600 chips, I'll still have more than my starting stack, so plenty of play.

But when Idaho CALLED, leaving 200 behind, I assumed he wanted me to call, coz he had a monster.  I knew the extra cips were going in, either pre or post flop.  So should I call, coz it's good odds, even though I've got to put myself as being behind.  Or do I fold, assuming I'm beat.  I've only invested 150 chips so far, I nearly didn't play the hand at all, so it should be easy to let go.

But it's 700 more, & I might knock 2 guys out.

I was going around in circles ( not bad in 20 seconds ), so I called, mainly coz of the chance to knock 2 guys out, & still have a  playable stack, if I lost.

Ok, so I won.  Which meant I could sleep my way into the money.  But was it a reasonable call, or should I get the  out again ?

[Wardonkey]

Good call, you have a reasonable hand, excellent odds and a chance to take 2 players out.

[tantrum]

no fish here today:)

[boldie]

no fish here today:)

I agree..if you call preflop you can not fold to a 200 bet on the flop.

[matt674]

no fish here today:)

I agree..if you call preflop you can not fold to a 200 bet on the flop.

I think he's probably refering to the calling pre-flop of an all-in reraise that had subsequently been called by another short stack - there by forcing him to commit more than a third of his stack with AJ against two opponents.

[boldie]

no fish here today:)

I agree..if you call preflop you can not fold to a 200 bet on the flop.

I think he's probably refering to the calling pre-flop of an all-in reraise that had subsequently been called by another short stack - there by forcing him to commit more than a third of his stack with AJ against two opponents.

yeah..that IMO isn't the greatest call in the world.

[matt674]

Not really in a sit and go player but i'd think twice about making the call - even if you knew your opponents cards then you could calculate that you will win the pot just over one third of the time. You are getting roughly 2-1 on your money so you are getting roughly the right odds to make the call.

Unfortunately unless you have ESP powers or unbelievable reads on your opponents hindsight really isnt possible - and if you were to take your opponents as holding a pair 77 and AQ instead of A10 then the chances of you winning the pot are 3-1 so you wouldnt be getting the correct odds.

If the unthinkable were to happen and you walk into the short stack holding AQ and the slighlty bigger stack holding KK then you are a 6.5-1 underdog as you will only win approx 13.3% of the time and even the prospect of taking 2 players out and virtually guaranteeing yourself a spot in the money isn't cause enough to make the call in this instance as in the long run the move isnt profitable. (this however is one of the worst case senarios)

I think the call doesnt look bad but only becuase we can see what your opponents turn over - however more often than not in this situation you will find that the odds of you winning arent as high as in this example.

[Wardonkey]

Confession: I didn't read the original post very thoroughly. I think I assumed that it was a big blind of 150 and not a raise. On review I need to retract my first post.

Firstly, for reasons discussed at length on other threads, I'd pass that hand at the first opportunity.

Secondly if I found my self in the position that you are in after the all-in and the call, then I would pass, for the same reasons given in Matts analysis.

The circumstances under which I make calls like this involve situations where the blinds are much bigger and the chips it costs me to call will not horribly damage my stack, usually I'm on the big blind and my call closes the action. In these situations your opponents ranges are much broader and the call is much more profitable. In the right circumstances I will call with hands much weaker than AJ.

Apologies for the misread...

[Rookie (Rodney)]

I wouldn't call preflop

[Muahahahaha]

That's more like it.  I thought the chances of it being good play were remote, otherwise I wouldn't have posted it.   

Trust me.  The original raise was a semi-bluff.  OOP raise from a rock to pick up the blinds.  I like to do that occasionally when I haven't played for a while, because if I haven't played for ages, then raise with AA / KK , I invaraibly get a walk.  By getting the walk now makes me believe that I'll be more likely to get action if I do hit a good hand.

Looking at the 2 players individually.

I've got 2310  the pot is 225.  Eiksen sticks in 660 .  So I have to put in 510 to win 885.  If I lose my stack is 1800.

At this point the call is still ok, I think ( feel free to correct me )

When Idaho calls I immediately assume that a) he's got something better than AJs, & he wants a call, & b) the last 200 is going in irrespective of the flop.

So now the pot is 225 + 660 + 860 ( effectively ) = 1745.  & now it's going to cost me 710 to call  ( I wasn't this rational at the time, believe you me ).   Eiksen could have anything, but Idaho has got something, & isn't trying to isolate.

Therefore I should assume big pair or AK.  Now I have to assume I'm a dog to at least one of them.  Therefore the fact of ONLY having to stick in 710 ( leaving me with 1600 - still playable ) is irrelevant.  I think I'm beat, but odds of  nearly 2.5 /1 aren't good enough to call if I'm that far behind.

Thoughts of knocking out two guys should be kept under control at this stage.

Is that a better long term view ?

Cheers,

    come home

[matt674]

That would be the long term view i would take - but then in MTT's it is slighlty different as there isnt much of a bonus to knocking people out until you get to the final stages of the tourney and the prize jumps are getting bigger. I'm sure though that the SNG players on blonde will probably agree that the same principle will apply for SNG's - though as Wardonkey points out the hand changes dramatically if this same situation were to occur later in the tourney where the blinds are a lot bigger then the call would be the correct move.