Some advice please

[TightEnd]

Newish dealer, not an issue here

[TightEnd]

ok, so you all know, this is NOT at Luton (in response to many queries!!!!)

[Heid]

I'm not going to offer any advice here - purely cause I am not experienced enough to give advice on stuff regarding UK casinos (I don't play enough in them - most of my play has been in Vegas).

But I have a feeling that incidents like this are going to be happening a lot more, due to people playing online, and this style of playing being prevalent online, and then playing the same live.

The question is what can we do about it? Or rather what can we expect the card rooms to do about it? I understand that expectation is very different from what actually happens, and the twain rarely meet, but we should be able to depend on TD's and supervisors, and managers to deal with this in an appropriate way.

I know that when I was in vegas in Feb, Mr Heid and I regularly played at the Plaza tourneys (we were there for 11 days, and they had 4 tourneys a day going - you do the maths - suffice to say we did a lot of playing!), and the weekdays were fine, tourists, a couple of locals that played a couple each day - but at the weekend, there was a lot more action, and on the Saturday night I was doing the midnight tourney which had a big field, but also had a group of about 8 players that were local, were very good and were obviously there to feed on the fish. They were very good, but also soft played each other to hell at the table I was at, the dealer knew it, but didn't feel comfortable bringing it up, so I moaned to the card room manager at the break, and he made a point of watching the table and calling them on it when play had resumed.

What I am trying to say is that the card room manager knew that I was going to be in town for another x days, knew that I had been playing there for x number of days, and I made it clear that I would be hot footing it over to Binions if he wasn't seen to do something about it (that was a bluff on my part - I hated playing at Binions, did it once, and wouldn't go back!) but he didn't want to lose my business.

Monsieur End <g>, I am sure I know where you were playing, cause you told me, and I think you are probably a regularish customer and they know you (they recognise me, only cause of my fat arse, and the fact I am a woman who isn't Chloe or Vicky or Mel), and yes you should kick up a stink, let them know you aren't going to be playing there until you know slow play isn't going to be acceptable, and will be acted upon. Tell them you have posted about it on the internet (it sounded nerdy a few years ago, but now it means advertising - good and bad - they all know poker in the UK is huge online).

Someone said that there should be cameras above tables - there is in the states, but I think over here, the casino doesn't see it as their money so they don't worry - they get their rake at the cage, and that's what they worry about.

OK, so I have rambled enough - you need to moan and moan big - not only will it make you feel better, but it will make them start to take things seriously - not sure what they can do about what happened last night, but it could help in the long run.

I hear such bad things about places in the UK that it really puts me off playing over here, thats the truth, pure and simple - and if feel that way, how many others do as well?

Probably not made you feel any better Tighty, and I am sorry, but you could be a martyr for the cause<g>.

Heid
xx

[TightEnd]

I'm not going to offer any advice here - purely cause I am not experienced enough to give advice on stuff regarding UK casinos (I don't play enough in them - most of my play has been in Vegas).

But I have a feeling that incidents like this are going to be happening a lot more, due to people playing online, and this style of playing being prevalent online, and then playing the same live.

The question is what can we do about it? Or rather what can we expect the card rooms to do about it? I understand that expectation is very different from what actually happens, and the twain rarely meet, but we should be able to depend on TD's and supervisors, and managers to deal with this in an appropriate way.

I know that when I was in vegas in Feb, Mr Heid and I regularly played at the Plaza tourneys (we were there for 11 days, and they had 4 tourneys a day going - you do the maths - suffice to say we did a lot of playing!), and the weekdays were fine, tourists, a couple of locals that played a couple each day - but at the weekend, there was a lot more action, and on the Saturday night I was doing the midnight tourney which had a big field, but also had a group of about 8 players that were local, were very good and were obviously there to feed on the fish. They were very good, but also soft played each other to hell at the table I was at, the dealer knew it, but didn't feel comfortable bringing it up, so I moaned to the card room manager at the break, and he made a point of watching the table and calling them on it when play had resumed.

What I am trying to say is that the card room manager knew that I was going to be in town for another x days, knew that I had been playing there for x number of days, and I made it clear that I would be hot footing it over to Binions if he wasn't seen to do something about it (that was a bluff on my part - I hated playing at Binions, did it once, and wouldn't go back!) but he didn't want to lose my business.

Monsieur End <g>, I am sure I know where you were playing, cause you told me, and I think you are probably a regularish customer and they know you (they recognise me, only cause of my fat arse, and the fact I am a woman who isn't Chloe or Vicky or Mel), and yes you should kick up a stink, let them know you aren't going to be playing there until you know slow play isn't going to be acceptable, and will be acted upon. Tell them you have posted about it on the internet (it sounded nerdy a few years ago, but now it means advertising - good and bad - they all know poker in the UK is huge online).

Someone said that there should be cameras above tables - there is in the states, but I think over here, the casino doesn't see it as their money so they don't worry - they get their rake at the cage, and that's what they worry about.

OK, so I have rambled enough - you need to moan and moan big - not only will it make you feel better, but it will make them start to take things seriously - not sure what they can do about what happened last night, but it could help in the long run.

I hear such bad things about places in the UK that it really puts me off playing over here, thats the truth, pure and simple - and if feel that way, how many others do as well?

Probably not made you feel any better Tighty, and I am sorry, but you could be a martyr for the cause<g>.

Heid
xx

tighty? jeez

Heid, a very thoughtful post thank you

[ariston]

Ok just sussed the venue having read Heids post and I can't say I am surprised. I would think seeing as they have a high profile event coming up shortly they would have staff who know the score.
I think the exchange if I had been involved would've probably ended in me being banned  ( I know a few players where it would've ended up in a riot)

[Heid]

They couldn't have a riot - the tables are so damn close to one another people couldn't move fast enough <g>.

Heid
xx

[RED-DOG]

I think that there is another issue that needs to be addressed here

I have been in a similar situation to this and the thing that has stopped me from making a really big fuss, ie refusing to play on but staying in my seat, or rolling about on the floor with the culprit and naming and shaming venues/influential players, is the fact that casino managers are judge, jury and executioner, they can have you barred for life, from all UK casinos if they want to, without so much as a hearing, and you have no right of appeal

[TightEnd]

which, Red Dog, is the reason why as I pointed out to Ariston earlier I didn't take it further (not that I would anyway, not the type) and why I am keeping things generalistic not specific

I do think as the game increases in popularity, fields grow and with it angle shooting inevitably results (of course it already exists), there is a need not only for the standardised rules that so many of us have asked for but perhaps a Poker Ombudsman or tribunal. Players can take disputes etc to such a body for resolving and if necessary compensating after the event.

[Heid]

I think between the TV companies and the casinos - the rights of the players have been somewhat brushed aside. You are right though - I certainly think that is needed, I kinda can't see it happening though.

[tikay]

This is a sad tale Tight-End, but I fear you are not gonna get any satisfaction by writing to Head Office. It's out and out cheating, end of story, but it's just NOT possible to force anyone to bet in any situation.

I witnessed just such an occurence at Notts 18 months ago in a Final, & I stopped the game, picked up both sets of cards & called the Manager. Manager shrugs his shoulders & says there is nothing he can do, he can't PROVE it was cheating. The deep-stacked geezer, who actually held top set, had to call 200 nto an 8,000 pot - his "mate" was ali-in........Odds of 40-1, with top set, & he passed for 200, while sitting on a 40k stack! Later, same short-stack has 4,500, blinds are 2k-4k, shorty moves in for his last 4,500, Deep-Stacked mate on BB has to make up 500, so 500 into a 10.5k pot, including the SB who did not make up, and BB Cheaty Baa-Lamb passes!. Odds were about 20-1, & I turned his cards over again before he could muck them - K-7 suited.

So for 12 months, every time I sat at a table with Mr Cheat, I called him exactly that - "Hiya Cheat", & when the rest of the table wondered what I was on about, I told them the story - scores of times over the coming months. Did no good, but made me feel better. To this day, I still address him as "cheat", preferably in front of others.

Gosney also caught two guys doing it at the last Sheffield Festival, & he shamed 'em both there & then. But the beauty of showing them up is that, over time, the word spreads, & these guys slowly get ostracised.

But to some folks, this sort of play is quite acceptable - it just is. It's often said that it's just Greeks or Asians that do it, but that's just not true - there are a bunch of Brits I know that do it quite openly, admitting that they "won't play against each other, why should we, we have shares in each other".

I really don't know the answer, but I do know it don't arf rankle.

[Junior Senior]

the fella to which tikay refers continues to behave like this 18 months down the line and i posted something similar to this about 3 months ago, where a pot was checked down and the guy in the BB (Mr Cheat) who was last to act just called on the end to his mates bet when he had the stone cold nuts - he could not be beaten, there was no more action after him.  I cried foul but again nothing was done and the guy got away with it.  - pure and simple it is cheating and i am affraid it will not go away until a rule is brought in to prevent such play or the TD's and card room managers get tougher.

i applaud your show of disgust by leaving and subsequesnt approach to the management but i fear it will not prevent it happening again.

[I KNOW IT]

Gosney also caught two guys doing it at the last Sheffield Festival, & he shamed 'em both there & then. But the beauty of showing them up is that, over time, the word spreads, & these guys slowly get ostracised.

Err Lord Gosney to you please

[dan]

 blinds are 2k-4k, shorty moves in for his last 4,500, Deep-Stacked mate on BB has to make up 500, so 500 into a 10.5k pot, including the SB who did not make up, and BB Cheaty Baa-Lamb passes!. Odds were about 20-1, & I turned his cards over again before he could muck them - K-7 suited.

when you turned over K7 did you tell the rest of the table he had Kings

[TightEnd]

thank you for all your advice and tales

Tikay, I have arranged a meeting with both the Overall Manager of the Casino and the Cardroom manager, (having faxed a letter yesterday and rang them to follow it up) who was not the supervisor on the night

I do not expect this will yield results, but I am a persuasive chap (hence I got the meeting!). Will let you know what they say

[Pommy]

Best of luck Tight,

Do let us know how you get on....it may pay to print off this thread and show it to them to let them see how this kind of thing is not tollerated at all.  If you show that it isn't just yourself that feels that this type of behaviour, they may listen a bit more closely to what you are saying.

Just slightly on the subject, would a quick petition help?  There would certainly be no shortage of input...