Exit Hand Sunday Warm up 11th

[Sunday8pm]

I was watching for quite a while, Gigabet was very active really bullying the table (as he should with his stack). I can see how it looks a bit rash but in the context of that table against that player I think Dewi made a perfect read on the situation, it took real ba**s to make the play, given blind situation to get up the prize money it was a good move IMHO.

As it was 70% - 30% favourite to win and got unlucky (although not as bad a JP, that was a beat)

As for the rail criticism, pure green eyed envy

Nobody can make a value raise pre flop with 8 high, thats for sure. So i can't agree with 'perfect read on the situation'

Dewi, im a loose maniac donk in tourneys and even i wouldn't push here. Your better off moving in with Qx, Kx, Ax against this type of player who you feel has nothing because your more likely to be in front. Pushing with 78s when Gigabet has more than plenty pot odds is pretty bad by your standards. as he could have you dominated with as minimal holding as 89.

[Sunday8pm]

push. everyone knows gigabet is superaggressive and could be raising with any two. so this is the perfect spot to take a shot plus its better to push with mid-suited connectors than high suited connectors which are more likely to be dominated.

I don't understand what your saying here. What i gather is you want to push because you feel 78s could be winning? Or you would just give up and pray your at least a 40% dog? Id take the high suited connectors anyday against Gigabet in this situation

[boldie]

I don't know...I have mixed feelings about the way this hand was played.

I like the push against most opponents as they can/will lay their poorer hands down. Against an oppo like gigabet who could have any two I am not so sure.

You pushed with a better pushing hand than Qx Kx etc as they are likely to be dominated so from that perspective I would be happy making that push. The choice of oppo to d it against might not have been the best though.

However, I wouldn't beat myself up about it too much. the push wasn't awfull. it was just against the wrong guy.

[MANTIS01]

OK

this shove is absolutely awful, you are laying gigabet 2.84/1 which means he has to call as long as he is 26% against your range... to give you some idea, even if your range was QQ, KK, AA, AKo, AKs, 75o is still 25% against that range so he has to call.  There is absolutely no way he can fold here so your play is ridiculously bad i'm afraid

I don't get this.

If the sole intention of the player is to get his opponent to fold then I agree that this is an unrealistic expectation.

However, Dewi does not state that this is the motivation for pushing here. He has 582,063 chips left. Every orbit of 7 hands is costing him 148,000. He is being faced by much bigger stacks.

He absolutely has to get in there and gamble with the intention of doubling up if he holds out any hope of winning the tournament. So now the decision has been made to gamble and try and get some chips about him at what point do we decide that this is a hopeless play? Is it a hopeless play when we see 7-8 vs 7-5? Or does it only become a hopeless play when the cards are dealt and the hand is lost? Or is a hopeless play because of what his opponent might have had rather than what he actually did have? Who doesn't actually like this situation?

For me, this is a great gamble at the right time. Just unlucky. Of course you could just wait to get anted away and leave quietly.

Incidentally:

Bellagio: $1000 buy-in No Limit Hold-Em Tournament

Blinds 100/200 with 25 ante

Player A raises 750 from early position, Player B with 12,000 chips flat calls.

Scott Fischman, with 2,225 chips, looks down to see    . He pushes all-in.

He freely admits that there is only "a small chance both players will fold" here.

Ideally, he says that he wants to get heads-up with one of them and try and get some chips about him.

Actually, both players call the all-in and check it down to the river.

Fischman flops a full house and goes from 2,225 to over 7,000 chips...."putting myself in a good position"

Makes sense to me.

[AlexMartin]

Sheets @ co could well be ribbing Gigabet for his filthy luck, not yourself.

[doubleup]

OK

this shove is absolutely awful, you are laying gigabet 2.84/1 which means he has to call as long as he is 26% against your range... to give you some idea, even if your range was QQ, KK, AA, AKo, AKs, 75o is still 25% against that range so he has to call.  There is absolutely no way he can fold here so your play is ridiculously bad i'm afraid

I don't get this.

If the sole intention of the player is to get his opponent to fold then I agree that this is an unrealistic expectation.

However, Dewi does not state that this is the motivation for pushing here. He has 582,063 chips left. Every orbit of 7 hands is costing him 148,000. He is being faced by much bigger stacks.

He absolutely has to get in there and gamble with the intention of doubling up if he holds out any hope of winning the tournament. So now the decision has been made to gamble and try and get some chips about him at what point do we decide that this is a hopeless play? Is it a hopeless play when we see 7-8 vs 7-5? Or does it only become a hopeless play when the cards are dealt and the hand is lost? Or is a hopeless play because of what his opponent might have had rather than what he actually did have? Who doesn't actually like this situation?

For me, this is a great gamble at the right time. Just unlucky. Of course you could just wait to get anted away and leave quietly.

Incidentally:

Bellagio: $1000 buy-in No Limit Hold-Em Tournament

Blinds 100/200 with 25 ante

Player A raises 750 from early position, Player B with 12,000 chips flat calls.

Scott Fischman, with 2,225 chips, looks down to see    . He pushes all-in.

He freely admits that there is only "a small chance both players will fold" here.

Ideally, he says that he wants to get heads-up with one of them and try and get some chips about him.

Actually, both players call the all-in and check it down to the river.

Fischman flops a full house and goes from 2,225 to over 7,000 chips...."putting myself in a good position"

Makes sense to me.

lol - this is such a different situation and anyway it is result orientated.  It was a total freak that Dewi found himself ahead pre-flop - most times he would be slightly behind or way behind.  It doesn't take a genius to know that a button raise at this point doesn't mean much but you have to wait for a hand that is likely to be ahead - you are still gambling but generally as favorite and not underdog.

[matt674]

Given that 9th gets 50% more than 10th and 8th gets just over 150% more than 10th i'd be inclined to show a bit more patience here. Yes you want to go out fighting rather than just get antied away but you're reraising in this situation with 8 high knowing you are going to get called. Personally i'd rather wait until the next unraised pot and push all in blind, as it happens when the cards are flipped over its the perfect hand for you to see - but lady luck wasn't smiling on you this time. Had watched from about 60-70 players out and you played a good game throughout

[boldie]

OK

this shove is absolutely awful, you are laying gigabet 2.84/1 which means he has to call as long as he is 26% against your range... to give you some idea, even if your range was QQ, KK, AA, AKo, AKs, 75o is still 25% against that range so he has to call.  There is absolutely no way he can fold here so your play is ridiculously bad i'm afraid

I don't get this.

If the sole intention of the player is to get his opponent to fold then I agree that this is an unrealistic expectation.

However, Dewi does not state that this is the motivation for pushing here. He has 582,063 chips left. Every orbit of 7 hands is costing him 148,000. He is being faced by much bigger stacks.

He absolutely has to get in there and gamble with the intention of doubling up if he holds out any hope of winning the tournament. So now the decision has been made to gamble and try and get some chips about him at what point do we decide that this is a hopeless play? Is it a hopeless play when we see 7-8 vs 7-5? Or does it only become a hopeless play when the cards are dealt and the hand is lost? Or is a hopeless play because of what his opponent might have had rather than what he actually did have? Who doesn't actually like this situation?

For me, this is a great gamble at the right time. Just unlucky. Of course you could just wait to get anted away and leave quietly.

Incidentally:

Bellagio: $1000 buy-in No Limit Hold-Em Tournament

Blinds 100/200 with 25 ante

Player A raises 750 from early position, Player B with 12,000 chips flat calls.

Scott Fischman, with 2,225 chips, looks down to see    . He pushes all-in.

He freely admits that there is only "a small chance both players will fold" here.

Ideally, he says that he wants to get heads-up with one of them and try and get some chips about him.

Actually, both players call the all-in and check it down to the river.

Fischman flops a full house and goes from 2,225 to over 7,000 chips...."putting myself in a good position"

Makes sense to me.

lol - this is such a different situation and anyway it is result orientated.  It was a total freak that Dewi found himself ahead pre-flop - most times he would be slightly behind or way behind.  It doesn't take a genius to know that a button raise at this point doesn't mean much but you have to wait for a hand that is likely to be ahead - you are still gambling but generally as favorite and not underdog.

I don't get this at all anymore.

 I have been thinking about this hand a bit and, the fold is not really any good to you and all that matters than is that you have outs. Suited connectors are great for that and his cards are live against most opponents. He simply could not wait a lot longer to find a decent spot in which he could double up. stealing the blinds and then hoping for a premium hand with which to double up doesn't work. I have decided I like Dewi's play here. his reasoning stands up and he just got unlucky.

[boldie]

Given that 9th gets 50% more than 10th and 8th gets just over 150% more than 10th i'd be inclined to show a bit more patience here.

this is the only reason anyone can possibly find for a fold here.

[Sunday8pm]

OK

this shove is absolutely awful, you are laying gigabet 2.84/1 which means he has to call as long as he is 26% against your range... to give you some idea, even if your range was QQ, KK, AA, AKo, AKs, 75o is still 25% against that range so he has to call.  There is absolutely no way he can fold here so your play is ridiculously bad i'm afraid

I don't get this.

If the sole intention of the player is to get his opponent to fold then I agree that this is an unrealistic expectation.

However, Dewi does not state that this is the motivation for pushing here. He has 582,063 chips left. Every orbit of 7 hands is costing him 148,000. He is being faced by much bigger stacks.

He absolutely has to get in there and gamble with the intention of doubling up if he holds out any hope of winning the tournament. So now the decision has been made to gamble and try and get some chips about him at what point do we decide that this is a hopeless play? Is it a hopeless play when we see 7-8 vs 7-5? Or does it only become a hopeless play when the cards are dealt and the hand is lost? Or is a hopeless play because of what his opponent might have had rather than what he actually did have? Who doesn't actually like this situation?

For me, this is a great gamble at the right time. Just unlucky. Of course you could just wait to get anted away and leave quietly.

Incidentally:

Bellagio: $1000 buy-in No Limit Hold-Em Tournament

Blinds 100/200 with 25 ante

Player A raises 750 from early position, Player B with 12,000 chips flat calls.

Scott Fischman, with 2,225 chips, looks down to see    . He pushes all-in.

He freely admits that there is only "a small chance both players will fold" here.

Ideally, he says that he wants to get heads-up with one of them and try and get some chips about him.

Actually, both players call the all-in and check it down to the river.

Fischman flops a full house and goes from 2,225 to over 7,000 chips...."putting myself in a good position"

Makes sense to me.

lol - this is such a different situation and anyway it is result orientated.  It was a total freak that Dewi found himself ahead pre-flop - most times he would be slightly behind or way behind.  It doesn't take a genius to know that a button raise at this point doesn't mean much but you have to wait for a hand that is likely to be ahead - you are still gambling but generally as favorite and not underdog.

I don't get this at all anymore.

 I have been thinking about this hand a bit and, the fold is not really any good to you and all that matters than is that you have outs. Suited connectors are great for that and his cards are live against most opponents. He simply could not wait a lot longer to find a decent spot in which he could double up. stealing the blinds and then hoping for a premium hand with which to double up doesn't work. I have decided I like Dewi's play here. his reasoning stands up and he just got unlucky.

78s really isnt a great tourney hand. Im sure the big online players will tell you that in the later stages of a tourney, they will bin suited connectors to raises aswell as small pocket pairs. These hands are better for cash game when most of the time every has between 50-200 big blinds and have the correct implied odds to call.

Dewi has 7bb and that isn't panic gamble time, you can wait 1 more round before you start throwing shit into the fan imo.

[doubleup]

He simply could not wait a lot longer to find a decent spot in which he could double up. stealing the blinds and then hoping for a premium hand with which to double up doesn't work.

He doesn't need to wait for a "premium hand" just one that's ahead of a loose raiser's range.

[MANTIS01]

OK

lol - this is such a different situation

That's right. In one scenario the short-stack is pushing all-in with suited connectors into a raised pot with little chance of his opponents folding in order to gamble and improve his tournament position. In the other scenario the short-stack is pushing all-in into a raised pot with little chance of his opponents folding in order to gamble and improve his tournament position.

I am at a loss to explain why I made any connection.

Anyway, to be honest I am not entirely sure what I would do given this unique situation in this particular event. My initial inclination would be to fold and wait to push first with a bigger hand. This is my first inclination.

I am playing the devil's advocate by supporting suited connectors though. Just interested to see what the reaction would be.

I have lost count of the number of times I have waited for strength deep in tournaments and been knocked out with the best of it. I have pushed with suited connectors and won big pots. I have pushed with A-A and lost to suited connectors. I have pushed with suited connectors and got knocked out etc etc...The fact is that there are no hard and fast rules for the short stack gamble. Maybe you have been card dead for the past hour and feel that the time is right. Maybe you have won a couple of big pots with this hand already and just fancy it. Ultimately it is all a matter of timing.

For sure, showing a bit of heart is a good thing as far as I am concerned.

But I do find it interesting to see players in their teens and early twenties post with complete certainty that this play is "absolutely awful" and "ridiculously bad". If you give yourself such strict guidelines when short-stacked you may be missing out on some of the more creative and ultimately tournament winning plays. Who knows! Certainly folding in this instance doesn't get your 7-8 up against the 7-5 for example.

I would feel confident after this play. Why not? Confident players play better I think.

[doubleup]

OK

lol - this is such a different situation

That's right........better I think.

So you can't see the difference between raise call reraise and raise reraise?

And a hand a million miles from a final and one on the brink of one?

[MANTIS01]

The differences are clear enough.

I was merely pointing out the similarities.

[MANTIS01]

Three tables left at the casino last night.

How events panned out over the next couple of hours made me think of this hand.

I think that it is worth a mention here.

One of the players had been a bit card dead and so became relatively short-stacked.

The blinds were 400/800 and he had about 5,300 or something like that. There was a raise to 2,400 and one caller. It came to the short-stack who said.."Time to gamble"...and pushed all-in. The big blind called, as did the raiser and the caller. At showdown the short stack revealed      for the made straight. He raked in a pot of about 22,000.

Suddenly this guy's whole attitude changed. He had some chips about him and started getting involved again. He was raising liberally and taking down his fair share of pots. Marginal hands that would have been mucked a few moments ago when he was short-stacked were now pushed with some aggression. He had gone from being detached from the game to well and truly back in it. And because he had chips he could now use them to get more chips. He was playing with confidence.

He was playing the game.

I was thinking...." I would have folded there with the 6-7".

It was clear he was behind and obvious he was going to be called.

He clearly could have waited and pushed with a better hand, but suited connectors have the ability to take down a big pot...and he gambled there to win a big pot.

The chips in that big pot gave him the play to get back into the tournament.

An hour or so later and with 2 tables remaining I was short stacked after going cold myself. I had been very patient. More patient than this guy. I had passed suited connectors a couple of times and my stack was dwindling. Eventually I got it in first with A-J and found a caller with A-10. I was knocked out to a flopped 10. Nice one!

I know this is just unlucky, but the point is that even if I had won that pot I am still struggling a bit, because ultimately my patience dwindled my stack. The win wouldn't have transformed my fortunes dramatically. 6-7 guy had quadrupled up, he had taken a big gamble before he was too far into the panic zone to win a big pot and get back into the thick of things. I had been more patient, waited for the maths to be right, took on a smaller gamble and failed to even double up.

Those people who can really play this game...need to play! This is the advantage they have over their opponents. But you cannot play without chips. All the moves you have are not part of your game anymore. You are sitting on your hands waiting for cards. If you leave it too late, a double up will only serve to give you more time to look for another double up. In the meantime your play is still restricted. Potential raising hands are mucked because they are not strong enough to commit with.

Suddenly you are not playing the game anymore.

Mathematical probability is the foundation of solid cash game play. It becomes a little less prevailant in tournament play though. Tournament time pressures mean the gambles you must take on are maybe a little more marginal than you would like. But you do have to gamble. When you become a relative short stack I don't think maths should hold anywhere near as much significance. It really is all a matter of timing.

The important thing though is that the more time you spend short-stacked the more opportunities you miss to actually play the game. And win the tournament.

Clearly, though my own tactic was to push first with strength but it didn't stop me liking the play from 6-7 guy though. Who was incidentally still chipped-up as I reached for my coat.